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FDP Forum / The 'Pup' Tent / PAF for Tele

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mr.gibson

Hamilton, Canada

Music is your only friend....
Jan 4th, 2019 11:35 PM   Edit   Profile  

This may have been answered 300 times... but: I have always sort of coveted a Tele with humbucker, and have ordered a Squier CV 50s Tele and plan to put one in there. I want a pickup similar to what Gibson was making in the late 1960s. Does Gibson still make one with that flavor, or can you suggest someone (besides Duncan) who does? I know nothing of Gibson's current crop, or who they are aiming at, so to speak. Thanks.

(This message was last edited by mr.gibson at 01:42 AM, Jan 5th, 2019)

Peegoo
Contributing Member
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Head fulla lightning

and a hat fulla rain
Jan 5th, 2019 03:01 AM   Edit   Profile  

In the Gibson line--the '57 Classic or the Burstbucker.

pcalu

usa Thumb area Mi

Jan 5th, 2019 05:38 AM   Edit   Profile  

Shawbucker 1 & 2
Have got a lot of great reviews

Those humbuckers are made for a 25.5 scale guitar.

Tim Shaw leaned pickup 101 from the great Seth Lover

Some Gibsons PAFs (with me) can sound too bassy almost muddy for my tastes. Sometimes I think its because they were designed with a 24.5 scale in mind.

Because this subject is so subjective on personal likes and dislikes. My ears like a vintage bright pickup (humbucker or single coil) and I don't play with heavy dirt. (lean heavly on compression and sustain )

Te 52

Laws of Physics

strictly enforced
Jan 5th, 2019 12:04 PM   Edit   Profile  

"...Some Gibsons PAFs (with me) can sound too bassy almost muddy for my tastes. Sometimes I think its because they were designed with a 24.5 scale in mind..."

This doesn't make sense to me, can you explain your thinking?

mr.gibson

Hamilton, Canada

Music is your only friend....
Jan 5th, 2019 12:18 PM   Edit   Profile  

B.B. King >>>> Santana-Allmans. No dirtier.

Peegoo
Contributing Member
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Way past Mars

there's a world of fools
Jan 5th, 2019 02:22 PM   Edit   Profile  

Scale length (within the variance between Gibson and Fender scales) has no bearing on how bright or dark a pickup sounds.

Other things, like string type and gauge, distance from the pickup, guitar materials, etc., can have a marked effect though.

Te 52

Laws of Physics

strictly enforced
Jan 5th, 2019 06:53 PM   Edit   Profile  

^
^ That's what I think as well, but I wanted to hear pcalu's rationale.

pcalu

usa Thumb area Mi

Jan 6th, 2019 07:51 AM   Edit   Profile  

If are looking at it from the pup side you are all correct.

Look at it from the guitar side:

25.5 scale guitars. The strings vibrate at different frequencies than a guitar at a 24.5 scale.

In short "the longer the scale length .. the broader the frequencies" In 25.5 case its also tighter frequencies at 440 concert pitch (standard tuning)

Your Standard typical winding for a PAF (designed for 24.5 scale)

Transfer that pup to a 25.5 scale the broader frequencies come through. Now if you're ok with that .. it works.

For me, it's almost adding too much.

Of course one can adjust the poles and the height to achieve the desired effect, but IMO if I can't set the pup at the height it was designed to operate at I've lost the optimum of the pickup.


Take the Shaw Buckers... its a safe bet that Tim Shaw designed those for a 25.5 scale guitar. Put those in a traditional Les Paul (24.5 scale) they are going to be bright and almost on the thin side










Te 52

Laws of Physics

strictly enforced
Jan 6th, 2019 10:32 AM   Edit   Profile  

"...25.5 scale guitars. The strings vibrate at different frequencies than a guitar at a 24.5 scale..."

No they don't. A vibrating string vibrates at the fundamental frequency and integer multiples thereof. The relative strength of partials may vary, but the frequencies do not.

"...the longer the scale length, the broader the frequencies..."

This is a very vague statement. Do you mean that the very high partials are stronger on a 25.5" scale? That would yield a brighter sound. And if that's the case, why would a Gibson PAF sound "too bassy" on a 25.5" scale instrument, as you stated?

"... In 25.5 case its also tighter frequencies at 440 concert pitch (standard tuning) ..."

This is basically a meaningless statement.

From this and similar posts, it's beginning to sound more and more like you are claiming expertise in areas where you have little solid knowledge.



pcalu

usa Thumb area Mi

Jan 6th, 2019 03:44 PM   Edit   Profile  

A vibration in a string is a wave. Resonance causes a vibrating string to produce a sound with a constant frequency, i.e. constant pitch. If the length or tension of the string is correctly adjusted, the sound produced is a musical tone. Vibrating strings are the basis of string instruments such as guitars, cellos, and pianos.

The velocity of propagation of a wave in a string is proportional to the square root of the force of tension of the string and inversely proportional to the square root of the linear density of the string:

The tension of the strings is all driven by the scale length!

So the low pitched strings are thicker. The frequency increases with the tension in the string. ... You can also change the pitch by changing the mode of vibration. When you play harmonics, you induce the string to produce waves which are a fraction of the length of those normally produced by a string of that length..

Notice we are once again talking vibration and frequency, (to include harmonics)

WHICH IS WHAT?

All governed by the scale length of the string instrument.

Now let's ask ourselves again... What does a pick up do?

Amplifies a wave signal.

How?

The magnets create a magnetic “flux field” around the pickups. When you strike a string, the field moves in response to the vibration, and the pickup translates these changes into small but meaningful electric signals.

What governs the frequency of the strings? (which is affecting the magnetic field of the pickup?)

The tension of the string.

What governs the length of the tension of the string?

The scale length of the guitar.


This took me about 10 seconds on google to find.. You could have researched all this in the time it took you to type your last post. (when I read it the last part I said WOW!!!!!!!)

I'm 52 been playing guitar since I was 16. Although I'm no expert.. those years translate into pretty in-depth expertise in Guitar "general knowledge 101"


Achase4u
Contributing Member
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U.S. - Virginia

Jan 6th, 2019 03:51 PM   Edit   Profile  

pcalu,

This is how strings work according to wikipedia(I only have a basic knowledge of string vibration and frequency), however what still isn't explained is how scale length produces different frequencies. All of what you say here just means that when you adjust the tension of say, the same string on a shorter or longer scale length, you end up producing precisely the same frequencies as the other. Otherwise the new scale length would not be in tune.

I'm still looking for the info in there that says one scale length produces different frequencies than another. I can only come to that conclusion if they are simply not tuned to the same pitch.

cisco
Contributing Member
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Show Low, Arizona

Bottom Sucker
Jan 6th, 2019 04:17 PM   Edit   Profile  

Try the Fender Shawbuckers. They are great once you set the proper height from the strings at 4/64 but the most important adjustment for these pups to sound great is adjusting the pole piece heights to match the radius of the fretboard. I just posted a new thread here about this.

Peegoo
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Just beyond Mars

there's a world of fools
Jan 6th, 2019 04:29 PM   Edit   Profile  

Different scale lengths do require different tensions in the strings to produce the same note. For example, a low E string on the shorter-scale Gibson is at a lower tension than the low E string on a Fender.

However, both strings are vibrating at the same fundamental frequency, and exhibit the same harmonic node characteristics.

If you're playing the guitar, there is a difference in feel. It's why a Gibson strung with 11s feels similar to a Fender strung with 10s.

In blind listening tests it would be impossible to reliably determine whether an open string or fretted note is being produced by a Gibson-scale or a Fender-scale guitar.

Achase4u
Contributing Member
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U.S. - Virginia

Jan 6th, 2019 04:47 PM   Edit   Profile  

"In blind listening tests it would be impossible to reliably determine whether an open string or fretted note is being produced by a Gibson-scale or a Fender-scale guitar."

I think so too. It would be fun to test. Same string brand, type, gauge. One guitar Gibson scale the other Fender. AB/XY double blind. Acoustic not plugged in. Doubt many could get close to 10/10 on a trial.(the few times out of 10 you get it right, the more likely you are guessing)

Te 52

Laws of Physics

strictly enforced
Jan 6th, 2019 04:49 PM   Edit   Profile  

As Achase4u suggests, If a string is tuned to a fundamental frequency of 165 Hz (standard tuning for guitar 1st string), it means *by definition* that it is vibrating at 165 Hz.

It doesn't matter what the string gauge is or what the scale length is, if a string is tensioned to the point that it is sounding E4, it's vibrating at 165 Hz. Period.

Any statement to the contrary simply doesn't make sense.

twangdoodles

michigan usa

Jan 6th, 2019 07:02 PM   Edit   Profile  

I'm sorry pcalu, but nothing you've said makes any sense to me either.

I will point out that if pickups were designed for specific scale-lengths then you can bet your rear end that manufacturers would be marketing that along side all the other minutia like wire specs, etc.

Peegoo
Contributing Member
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Just beyond Mars

there's a world of fools
Jan 6th, 2019 07:15 PM   Edit   Profile  

Pickup makers do accommodate string spread, since vibrato-equipped guitars generally have more string-to-string space between them.

But even so, a Gibson-spaced humbucker in a Strat's bridge position still works really well. A string doesn't have to be directly over the center of a pickup's polepiece to properly generate current in the coil. A magnet's field is toroidal--not linear.

Cal-Woody

USA/California

Why do I keep fixing things that work?
Jan 6th, 2019 07:18 PM   Edit   Profile  

I wonder if a mini-humbucker would suit your tastes? My old Les Paul deluxe had mini-humbuckers in it and were a little on the bright side and think that it would play nicely with a Tele bridge pickup.
If a Gibson one is not available, you could probably try out some Seymour Duncan's and various other makers and I think get a nice balance between the two.


Achase4u
Contributing Member
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U.S. - Virginia

Jan 6th, 2019 07:56 PM   Edit   Profile  

Indeed, Peegoo. I have standard G spaced 49.2 mm E to E buckers in my short scale Tele with vintage string spacing. I don't notice anything. It's a "field" not laser beams.

Achase4u
Contributing Member
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U.S. - Virginia

Jan 6th, 2019 07:56 PM   Edit   Profile  

Mini hums and firebirds are great semi bright sounding buckers.

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FDP Forum / The 'Pup' Tent / PAF for Tele




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