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FDP Forum / Moe's Tavern (_8^(I) / Renewable energy - good. Electric vehicles - not so much.

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Charente
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France

Feb 3rd, 2018 09:23 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

This is a little dense - perhaps one for the economists?

If you have an electric vehicle that's serving you well and saves you money - great. At the macro level though they may do a lot more harm than good .

"If it is accepted that EVs are as bad an idea as renewables are a good one, an inescapable conclusion has to be that EVs are likely to divert both effort and capital in ways that are wasteful. This risk would intensify were governments to allow themselves to be talked into subsidising EVs."

link

(This message was last edited by Chris Greene at 11:38 AM, Feb 3rd, 2018)

ECS-3
Contributing Member
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USA / Virginia

Feb 3rd, 2018 09:36 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

I didn't read your link but electric power generations is only about 30-35% efficiency. Which is to say at the power station, even a state of the art steam turbine can only convert 1/3 of the heat in steam to electric power, the other 2/3 is discharged as waste heat. It doesn't matter if the heat comes from coal, oil, natural gas, or nuclear. It's a limitation of the pressures and temperatures that a steam turbine can withstand.

Also there is the emissions issue. Just because you don't see any emissions in an EV doesn't mean there aren't any. The emissions are happening back at the power station on your behalf.

Also, if an entire country were to switch to mostly EVs, this is going to put a huge strain on the country's electric power grid.

I think for certain short haul / short commuter type applications an EV might have it's place, but that's about it.

(This message was last edited by ECS-3 at 11:38 AM, Feb 3rd, 2018)

Charente
Contributing Member
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France

Feb 3rd, 2018 09:53 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

"I didn't read your link"

Worth a read if you get the chance. The central thesis of all his blog posts is that our entire economic system is based on cheap available energy and that this era has ended.

"Also, if an entire country were to switch to mostly EVs, this is going to put a huge strain on the country's electric power grid."

I agree with all your points but this is the key point in his argument. Trends suggest that electricity demand will grow at a rate we're currently not likely to meet and the additional demand from widespread uptake of EV's will make it nigh on impossible.



rok-a-bill-e
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Nashville,USA

Clawhammer Rules!
Feb 3rd, 2018 10:16 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Nukes are the only answer right now and the people wanting to do away with fossil fuels are the same people who are opposed to nuclear energy development. But since the modern world is not going to go back to horses we had best get to building nuclear energy plants. Or just keep on burning oil, of which there is no shortage at all right now.

HeavyDuty
Contributing Member
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Northeast IL

Not very bright but does lack ambition
Feb 3rd, 2018 10:20 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

We need small self-contained nukes for under the stairs.

HeavyDuty
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Northeast IL

Not very bright but does lack ambition
Feb 3rd, 2018 10:23 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Seriously, though - development of robust solar and geothermal residential technologies is what we need. But, short term I think we would do better with putting fuel cells into Volt-style hybrids to give extended ranges.

Mike DeTorrice
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USA

Feb 3rd, 2018 11:40 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Unwarranted pushing of EVs has always been bad, both in principle and in reality, as many studies show. Electricity is not "free" and is not produced without other consequences, as do-gooders and rabid eco-heads don't seem to realize (or care about).

This is certainly only one more reason to stop all subsidies and tax breaks for such vehicles and technology and let the free market (and freedom of choice) be the guiding philosophy.

At some point, all energy producing methods (coal, oil, natural gas, nuclear, solar, hydro, geothermal, fuel cell, etc) will have a place and should be allowed to exist without either penalties, subsidies or unneeded bureaucracy.

Mike

ECS-3
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USA / Virginia

Feb 3rd, 2018 11:49 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

"This is certainly only one more reason to stop all subsidies and tax breaks for such vehicles and technology and let the free market (and freedom of choice) be the guiding philosophy."

I certainly agree with this. In the US there currently is a $7,500 Federal Income Tax Credit on EVs, which is a HUGE credit. That's not a deduction, that's a full reduction of your taxes owed. Most people don't even pay $7,500 in Federal taxes a year, so you have the general public subsidizing wealthy folks.

Probably started out well meaning, like most things I guess.

There have been a number of theoretical (100% conversion of energy, 100% perfect battery charging, etc) looking at what it would take to replace all those gasoline service stations with an equivalent amount of electric charging capacity, including all the electric utility upgrades needed, and it's not pretty. Not to mention the cost.

Not gonna happen.

Taildragger
Contributing Member
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USA

an acquired taste some may never acquire
Feb 3rd, 2018 12:53 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

I've long felt that EVs, at least to some degree, just move the source of the pollution from the tailpipe to the power plant, given that so much of our power generation is still oil fired.

Then there's the whole issue of the batteries. From an economic standpoint: how much does it cost to replace them when the original ones go bad? From an environmental standpoint: how much pollution is caused by their manufacture and disposal?

There's no doubt that internal combustion engines have and continue to cause problems, but EVs are not the panacea that some self-righteous crusaders would have us believe.



capnhiho
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Bakersfield, CA

I'm not a guitarist . . .
Feb 3rd, 2018 01:00 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

"Unwarranted pushing of EVs has always been bad"

This can't be! We are Kalifornia!

How can this be bad if Governor Brown supports it?

K4
Contributing Member
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Being defenseless

does not make you more safe
Feb 3rd, 2018 01:06 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

They still have rolling blackouts in Ca, correct?

So the power grid is already at max capacity, now add 5 million cars plugged into it.

Can't see the forest for the trees.

RDR
Contributing Member
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I tried to think

but nothing happened!
Feb 3rd, 2018 02:06 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Need backyard fusion plants. Wonder how Lockheed-Martin is coming along with the scalable reactors?

RDR
Contributing Member
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I tried to think

but nothing happened!
Feb 3rd, 2018 02:06 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Need backyard fusion plants. Wonder how Lockheed-Martin is coming along with the scalable reactors?

Montrealer
Contributing Member
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Montreal, Canada

Feb 3rd, 2018 02:30 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

“This risk would intensify were governments to allow themselves to be talked into subsidising EVs."

In Quebec, the government has a generous subsidy for these.

Also to consider:

The weight of the batteries in the vehicle

The cost of replacing the batteries when the time comes.



Taildragger
Contributing Member
**********

USA

an acquired taste some may never acquire
Feb 3rd, 2018 02:54 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

"The weight of the batteries in the vehicle"

Which creates wear and tear on the roadways, yet all-electric vehicles pay no gas taxes, which is general where the revenues for road building/maintenance comes from.

ninworks
Contributing Member
******

Tennessee

Too Much GAS
Feb 3rd, 2018 04:24 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

+1

"From an environmental standpoint: how much pollution is caused by their manufacture and disposal?"

The talking heads don't want anyone to realize that. I think most of them either don't even think about it or decide not to for convenience's sake.

Gene from Tampa
Contributing Member
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Tampa, FL

Press On Irregardless
Feb 3rd, 2018 05:33 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Mini-nukes in the near future ... I read where India is working with Westinghouse on small units that can fit in the back of a pickup truck and are air cooled.

They can power small towns/villages. So the next big ticket item will be the eventual disposal of all these albeit small reactors when they wear out.

tahitijack
Contributing Member
****

San Clemente, CA

Happy Sunsets, tahitijack
Feb 3rd, 2018 10:10 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

All my friends driving EVs charge them via a roof mounted solar panels at home or at work.

My concern is how much electronic must have stuff are we adding to the demand on the grid. We went from one TV per home to one per room.

Mike DeTorrice
Contributing Member
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USA

Feb 3rd, 2018 10:53 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

"All my friends driving EVs charge them via a roof mounted solar panels at home or at work......"

Besides the impact of making, installing maintaining and replacing expensive solar panels, such a system would be laughably impossible (as would the electric cars themselves) here in a usually overcast, bitterly cold and snow bound Chicago area.

jhawkr
Contributing Member
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Wichita, KS USA

It's all gravy from here on...
Feb 4th, 2018 04:21 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

"My concern is how much electronic must have stuff are we adding to the demand on the grid. We went from one TV per home to one per room."

Put your concern to rest. All your flat screen TV's likely consume less energy than one old 25" CRT.

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FDP Forum / Moe's Tavern (_8^(I) / Renewable energy - good. Electric vehicles - not so much.




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