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FDP Forum / Performer's Corner / Amp "on stage" at church.....

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walshb
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Manchester, TN

12,423 Mustangs passed and counting
Dec 14th, 2017 07:02 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

I've been having trouble with distortion in my IEM's at church for quite some time, my guitar never seems to sound "right" to me, especially when kicking in some OD.
So, I asked if I could try putting an amp on stage, facing me on a stand, since our loud drummer is pretty dominant anyway. I just didn't see how an amp would affect the sound men all that much.
So our team leader agreed to let me try it. I brought my Fuchs Four Aces (5W) to practice last night, and dialed it in at a low volume. (Dang, this amp kicks in immediately when you start turning the volume knob!)
After the first song, they said they couldn't hear me very well, so I boosted it up just a tad, both channels. That's all it takes on this amp, it has a very touchy volume knob, like too many amps.
We played the first song again, and the female keyboard player, who I was most concerned about offending since she's right in front of me, turned around and said "Bill! It's like I never heard you play before, until now!"
This was the highlight of my night, pretty much. She loved it! Several other team members said they could hear the guitar so much better than before, and I had a blast playing because I could actually hear what my amp was putting out, instead of a distorted version of it.
Yes, I'm a "feel" player and if last night is any indication, I'll be having a lot more fun playing at church now!
I know there have been tons of discussion on this subject, and "success" stories for guitar players are sort of few and far between. So I thought I'd put this out there, maybe it just takes the right type of team leader with an open mind, or maybe other factors higher up are involved, but I'm really looking forward (even more) to future Sundays at church!


Peegoo
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Close

but no guitar
Dec 14th, 2017 07:17 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Very cool!

So, extrapolating from your fellow musicians saying they can finally hear you--they're also saying they figured you couldn't play at all :o) Until now!

walshb
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Manchester, TN

12,423 Mustangs passed and counting
Dec 15th, 2017 02:27 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

"they're also saying they figured you couldn't play at all :o) Until now!

Funny! But I also know I did play better last night, because I have so much more confidence when I have that "feel" from the amp, and know what it's putting out. So much more fun!


Juice Nichols
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Panama City, FL

I'm just a dude, playing a dude...
Dec 15th, 2017 07:39 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Everyone is using IEM's and run direct at my church. No complaints "usually" about what they're getting in their ears.

Do you guys use personal mixing systems? Aviom, etc..? Are you just getting FOH in your ears? How good are your earbuds?

Sorry for so many questions, but you should be able to hear yourself just fine. Touring pros have been running this way for quite some time now, so it would appear there are some issues with the aux send you're getting on stage.

Glad you found a work around though. If it works for you and your sound techs then all is well!

walshb
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Manchester, TN

12,423 Mustangs passed and counting
Dec 15th, 2017 04:16 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

I have Westone ear buds, not the high end model but not cheap, either! I've fought the "distortion" for too long now, but the earbuds sound fine when I plug into my ipod or other music source, so it's not them. They had too much gain in my channel on the board, and it helped some when they turned that down; then they couldn't get me loud enough in the FOH, and had to start cutting back the gain on everyone else to compensate. Biggest problem is lack of experience by our sound people, and using the gain to turn someone up, instead of the sliders, I believe.

As for professionals, they aren't usually standing right next to a loud drummer, either! That's my other problem, they drown out a lot of what I should be hearing.
Even on my clean channel, it would often sound distorted in my earbuds, then going to the distortion channel, it sounded like crap! Difficult for me to play well under those circumstances; hard to just ignore what I'm hearing.
I have my own mix from the board, adjusting it with an app on my iPhone. So I can control what I'm hearing, other than drum volume.
Hopefully, this issue is solved now. I'll have to wait and see how it goes Sunday...but I know it'll be better than what it was before.

Juice Nichols
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Panama City, FL

I'm just a dude, playing a dude...
Dec 16th, 2017 03:43 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

So the FOH engineer is sending you a monitor mix then? Is it just the FOH mix or do they dial up a mix for each musician? If all they do is adjust the gain that will surely mess with your IE if the send is pre-fader. Some engineers like to set the faders at unity and drive with the gain pot, but I’m not one of them.

I agree, there’s nothing worse than trying to play when you can’t hear yourself. Having the drummer blasting right next to you doesn’t help I’m sure. Our drummer is enclosed in a plexiglass cocoon so you can hardly hear the drums acoustically.

Peegoo
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Dec 16th, 2017 03:45 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Hmmm, yeah...the input gain controls on the board are used to set the channel's preamp gain to the max level before distortion. Then the channel fader is used to set the level of that channel in the mix. The sound techs could use a quick and dirty course on signal level management.

It's fairly simple once you run through the process of keeping every channel's gain levels correct at every gain stage in the signal processing chain.

Peegoo
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Curled up

in the fecal position
Dec 16th, 2017 03:45 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Double post! Dang!

(This message was last edited by Peegoo at 04:18 AM, Dec 17th, 2017)

Mick Reid
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Australia

American-made in Oz!!
Dec 16th, 2017 04:12 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Twice the wisdom for HALF the price!! :^)


"Biggest problem is lack of experience by our sound people..."

I'd say you nailed it. I'm no sound guy by any stretch, but the whole gain/fader thing is pretty basic stuff.
Showing them some "how to" could be rewarding for all involved.

(This message was last edited by Mick Reid at 06:14 PM, Dec 16th, 2017)

walshb
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Manchester, TN

12,423 Mustangs passed and counting
Dec 16th, 2017 08:25 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

"So the FOH engineer is sending you a monitor mix then?"
I don't think so, there are faders for each musician and each of the vocalists on the app I'm using. The app is called X32-Q and I'm pretty sure it's a Behringer board. At one time, they had an "expert" sound guy come in and mix everything at a Wed practice, but of course...I wasn't there. I travel Mon-Fri and rarely make a practice.
Once the settings are "set" they can save that setting, and I'm pretty sure they did after the "expert" mixed it, but that was quite a while ago, now we have some different musicians and sound people and who knows what has been changed on the board since then!?
My poor hearing doesn't help, either, I'm probably having to turn up the IEM's more than the average person. I suffer from the constant hssssss of tinnitus. Not trying to make excuses, really, just trying to submit the whole picture, if that's even possible.

Juice Nichols
Contributing Member
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Panama City, FL

I'm just a dude, playing a dude...
Dec 17th, 2017 04:47 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

“mmm, yeah...the input gain controls on the board are used to set the channel's preamp gain to the max level before distortion. Then the channel fader is used to set the level of that channel in the mix. The sound techs could use a quick and dirty course on signal level management.”

If the IE tap is pre-fader (which it should be) moving the fader will do absolutely nothing for his IE mix. Moving the fader will only change the FOH mix. What I’ve seen happen is the musician will run out of gain with his personal mixer that controls his IE mix, which leaves you with the trim pot as the only way to increase the signal. If Walsh’s church is using the distribution hub for the IE’s, you can add some gain there as well. It can become a PIA to get both IE’s and FOH set properly. Without knowing how everything is routed on their board it’s very difficult to figure out the problem.

Edit:
Walshb, I had to look up the X32Q app as I’m not familiar with it. It looks like it allows you to adjust the aux mix before it hits the XLR output and also allows you to group several channels together so you can control them with one fader if you want to. Still, moving the fader on the app will only increase the level to the max amount “sent” to the particular aux mix set up by the engineer. If he’s already sending the strongest signal he can, the only way to increase the level is to increase the input gain.

(This message was last edited by Juice Nichols at 07:13 AM, Dec 17th, 2017)

walshb
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Manchester, TN

12,423 Mustangs passed and counting
Dec 17th, 2017 01:04 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Thanks, I'll have to look into that. I just use the individual sliders in the app.

Update:
I enjoyed playing today in church so much more than I have in a long time, just being able to hear exactly what my amp was putting out, instead of a distorted version of it, gave me more confidence and made playing more fun.
After practice, the drummer complained that he couldn't get enough guitar in his IEM's, so he want back and made some adjustments on the board, while I kept playing on stage by myself. He did say he had to add more gain to my channel. Since I'm not using the IEM's to hear myself now (I have the singers and some other instruments mixed, but took the guitar out and using just one IEM), I'm not sure if it would be more distorted (in my IEM) now since increasing the gain.
All I know is, my wife said she could hear the guitar a lot better today, so they must have put me in the house more because my on stage volume isn't enough to be carrying to the back of the room where she was sitting.

Juice Nichols
Contributing Member
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Panama City, FL

I'm just a dude, playing a dude...
Dec 17th, 2017 04:54 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Awesome! Glad it was a good experience for you.

Leftee
Contributing Member
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VA

Life makes a man tired.
Dec 17th, 2017 05:06 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Next step - Marshall

zenland

U.S.A. Hotlanta

avise la fin
Dec 17th, 2017 05:08 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Thumbs UP Bro!



walshb
Contributing Member
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Manchester, TN

12,423 Mustangs passed and counting
Dec 18th, 2017 05:31 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

"Awesome! Glad it was a good experience for you."

Thanks, and thank you for your input also. I'm not a sound guy, I just have to deal with 'em! ;)

"Next step - Marshall" If it wasn't so much more work to haul it back and forth every Sunday, I'd use it at church. But the Fuchs is my second best choice. It sounded great with my Strat today.

"Thumbs UP Bro!" Thanks Ken!



Leftee
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VA

Life makes a man tired.
Dec 18th, 2017 07:53 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

I just looked up your Fuchs. I suspect I would like that a lot. Cool amp!

walshb
Contributing Member
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Manchester, TN

12,423 Mustangs passed and counting
Dec 18th, 2017 08:35 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Thank! It really is a great amp, and 5W is a lot louder than most people realize!

Juice Nichols
Contributing Member
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Panama City, FL

I'm just a dude, playing a dude...
Dec 18th, 2017 08:47 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

"and 5W is a lot louder than most people realize!"

I bet it sounds glorious cranked too!

zenland

U.S.A. Hotlanta

avise la fin
Dec 19th, 2017 09:09 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

"I bet it sounds glorious cranked too!"

That has happened numerous times at Atlanta FDP Jams!

: )


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FDP Forum / Performer's Corner / Amp "on stage" at church.....




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