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FDP Forum / Moe's Tavern (_8^(I) / Natural Gas and CO Poisoning.

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Peegoo
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Roisin, I wanna

fight your father
Dec 6th, 2017 06:45 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

That last option is a good one. You could get yourself a 4x8 sheet of 3/4" foil-faced foamcore and a roll of aluminum duct tape and build a little 'doghouse' for it outside of your garage to keep it out of the elements. Cut the foamcore with a Stanley knife and a straight edge.

Here's some good info on ventless heat

right here.

BlondeStrat
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Las Vegas NV

Can't complain but sometimes I still do
Dec 6th, 2017 07:02 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Another advantage to having it (the burner) outside is I would then be able to paint inside the garage while the heat is going.

If the heater (burner) were inside the garage I would have to shut it down while spraying paint ... or risk making a huge bomb out of my garage ;)

Peegoo
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Roisin, I wanna

fight your father
Dec 6th, 2017 07:25 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

No kidding.

I know a guy who blew his house off the foundation when he was sealing the concrete basement floor with a solvent-based coating...and with the pilot light lit on his NG water heater.

FOON!

And he lived to tell the tale.

Popps

New England

Dec 6th, 2017 07:52 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Retire gasman here, CO is the product of poor combustion. Poor combustion can be caused by reduced oxygen, a partially blocked burner or burner port, poorly regulated gas pressure and many other things. Code calls for any gas appliance in a garage to be at least 18" off the floor. As stated above, CO detectors are cheap, at any cost when it comes to safety. Also they have a limited lifetime, 5-7 years. Also as it seems you are planning, it is best installed outside the garage. A picture of the heater would alow better advice.

BlondeStrat
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Las Vegas NV

Can't complain but sometimes I still do
Dec 6th, 2017 08:04 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

"A picture of the heater would alow better advice."

I can do that.

It's in the storage room, so I'll need to bring in the ladder and climb up there. Maybe tomorrow morning.

Popps

New England

Dec 6th, 2017 08:11 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

One other thing,"a big shop" may have been large enough for this to have run unvented, a residential garage, most likely not. When it was run previously, was it run on natural gas or propane? If on propane, it will need it will need to be converted, it will need the proper regulator and the burner orifice will need to be drilled to the proper size. This is a job for a gas appliance pro.

BlondeStrat
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Las Vegas NV

Can't complain but sometimes I still do
Dec 6th, 2017 08:19 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

I'm pretty sure it was running natural gas. I know the people I got it from very well and I can ask ... two of them are on the contacts list in my phone. ;)

And yes the area they heated was pretty large.

Calling it a big shop is maybe understating it, more like a smallish warehouse. Had three or four big bay doors which would have or could have been open at times.

Popps

New England

Dec 6th, 2017 08:39 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

If the heater has a rating plate, try to get a pic of that also. Thanks.

thumbpicker
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St. Louis

"Thumbpicks don't slide into soundholes"
Dec 7th, 2017 08:47 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

I know for when I was using one in my basement it really took the water out of the air and made it condense on ceilings and walls. When I got a manual for it the manual said it needed ventilation in the space such as a partially open window or two and warned of the condensation problem. In a garage it would probably be fine with a window cracked. Or raise the door just a bit to vent it. I finally quit using it in favor of an electric radiant heater down there in the basement. We had a large one in the old house I grew up in. It never killed us but then again the wainscoting in that house leaked air so badly it would blow a candle out.

Popps

New England

Dec 7th, 2017 08:56 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Condensation is a by-product of the combustion process, especially in a smaller space. My drummer installed a ventless heater in our pratice space and the condensation wound up ruining a couple of the windows in the room. He has since replaced it with a direct vent space heater. The room is far mor comfortable now.

BlondeStrat
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Las Vegas NV

Can't complain but sometimes I still do
Dec 7th, 2017 10:27 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Here it is.

The size of this thing as it stands there is just under three feet tall and just under two and a half feet wide.

The blower duct end is 6"

Front al view

BlondeStrat
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Las Vegas NV

Can't complain but sometimes I still do
Dec 7th, 2017 10:28 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Another

rear angle view

BlondeStrat
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Las Vegas NV

Can't complain but sometimes I still do
Dec 7th, 2017 10:31 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Designated for Natural Gas right on the plate and 50,000 BTU.

Rating plate

BlondeStrat
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Las Vegas NV

Can't complain but sometimes I still do
Dec 7th, 2017 10:35 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Certainly needs a cover plate of the electrical connection box and the thermostat appears to be a goner. Electrical cord (to the motor) is rotted as well.

It needs some work and restoration ;)

Control area

BlondeStrat
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Las Vegas NV

Can't complain but sometimes I still do
Dec 7th, 2017 10:42 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Another aspect of using this is I need to have a proper hose to get from the gas meter to the heater.

Size and material will need to be determined.

Te 52

Laws of Physics

strictly enforced
Dec 7th, 2017 11:05 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

In perfectly clean combustion, a hydrocarbon fuel combines with oxygen in the air to produce carbon dioxide and water.

Unvented heaters -- even if they burn cleanly -- consume oxygen and produce CO2, a dangerous combination in an enclosed space.

Worst case: an unvented heater, with no automatic gas shutoff if the flame goes out, burning in a small sealed room. CO2 concentration builds up, oxygen gets depleted, occupants faint, flame goes out but gas keeps flowing. Death soon follows.

Montrealer
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Montreal, Canada

Dec 7th, 2017 11:08 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Natural gas, propane, butane, alcohol... you name it... these are compounds containing CARBON and hydrogen, and some also oxygen. Carbon is the key... Burning any of these fuels produces carbon dioxide and water... plus the by-products of any impurities.

Note also that as the oxygen supply for the burning fuel decreases ( as in an enclosed room, tent, shop,...) the burning reaction produces carbon monoxide. And, you know about that stuff.

Ventilation or add a proper chimney is required.

A bit of chemistry...

Natural gas = methane (plus additives to make the odour and impurities) = CH4

CH4 + 2O2 = CO2 + 2H2O

BlondeStrat
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Las Vegas NV

Can't complain but sometimes I still do
Dec 7th, 2017 11:23 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

I would venture a guess that with the way this heater/blower/burner are configured ...

New air (oxygen) is being forced into the burn chamber by the blower which seems (to me) would serve to insure a cleaner burn via that additional forced airflow at the burn point.

(This message was last edited by BlondeStrat at 01:24 PM, Dec 7th, 2017)

Popps

New England

Dec 7th, 2017 03:17 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

The good news is, there is a pilot safety which prevents main burner gas if the pilot is not lit or it goes out. Also the gas valve appears to be a solenoid valve which means the unit needs 110v. power. 50,000 btu's is a lot of input for a small space. My boiler for my 5 room ranch is 48,000 btu.
The thermostat looks a little funky, I can't tell if it is a 24v t-stat or a 110v one. If it is 110v they are only allow in a commercial building.
There is a transformer so I would think the gas valve and t-stat are 24v but they should be checked with a multi-meter.

rvwinkle
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Twin Cities, USA

Land of Sky Blue Waters
Dec 7th, 2017 04:19 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Natural gas furnaces for houses have a heat exchanger. All the combustion gases are run thru the inside of of the heat exchanger and are vented out the chimney.

The circulating air for the house is heated by outside of the heat exchanger.

Propane and natural gas have combustion gases that include carbon monoxide no matter how good the burner is adjusted.

Since your heater is only direct combustion it requires a lot of ventilation.

For your garage, you might get by if you have adequate roof venting and you chock the bottom of your garage door for an adequate fresh air supply.

Get a CO detector for sure.

rvw

(This message was last edited by rvwinkle at 06:25 PM, Dec 7th, 2017)

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FDP Forum / Moe's Tavern (_8^(I) / Natural Gas and CO Poisoning.




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