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FDP Forum / The Chop Shop / It is never gonna happen, Bob. Quit while your ahead!

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larryguitar19
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South Florida

larryguitar
Oct 12th, 2017 06:35 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Here is my thought:

Don't get to hung up on it. Be yourself and sing whatever moves you.

This is not Aida at the Met. This is Rock and Roll invented by slack jawed nuckle dragging Neanderthals like us to play just well enough to get girls to sleep with us.

Like anything else there are 3 categories of singers:

a.) They were born with it. There are not a lot of those.

b.) There ain't no hope and it's a waste even trying. We get those at the acoustic open mics. And my attitude is always "So what. Life is short and this 15 minutes of joy and God Bless 'em'

c.) The great middle--which includes "Moi". Not born with it. After enough years I am finally at the point to where I"m not totally repulsed by the sound of my own voice.

d.) In terms of timing I had that problem. There is no short cut solution. If I want to 'nail it' I sit in my chair for hours, rock back and forth and stomp my feet working on just one line keying on each part--sometimes a couple syllables until I had it down. Find the "1" and hit the down strum and that word until you can do it without effort. The rest will fall into place.

(This message was last edited by larryguitar19 at 08:51 PM, Oct 12th, 2017)

larryguitar19
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South Florida

larryguitar
Oct 12th, 2017 06:41 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Another thought that comes to mind. I've seen this too.

When strumming the guitar and singing you find you are getting tripped up because you are doing 2 things at once then think about simplifying.

I noticed a lot of people have this tendency to do a lot of robotic repetitive down up down up all the way through with no change or dynamics. It comes off as a lot a clatter.

Instead sing the verse and only strum with one down stroke on the accented syllables.

In other words do about 25% of whatever strumming you were doing before.

(This message was last edited by larryguitar19 at 08:54 PM, Oct 12th, 2017)

larryguitar19
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South Florida

larryguitar
Oct 12th, 2017 06:56 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

BTW--are there any open mics in Pueblo? I get that way a couple times a year and might meet up sometime.

5Strats
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Edmond/OKC

GospelBilly!
Oct 13th, 2017 06:06 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

With practice, you can sing over almost any guitar chords or riffs.

It's not something that comes natural, you have to work on being able to separate your brain to do two different things at once.

Therealfrogman
Contributing Member
*****

Pueblo, Co

illegal is a sick bird....
Oct 13th, 2017 12:28 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

larryguitar, thank you for the insight. I think my voice would be okay with some work. I have not played in front of anyone in at least 8 years and then I had several martinis in me and the girl that sang the Pat Benatar song we did was exceptional, we had worked many songs out together, it was an open jam and I had confidence.

I no longer have someone to work out songs with other than backup tracks on YT and honestly have no desire to perform for people in any capacity. The other thing is that even though I have been sober for quite some time I cannot allow myself to be around it or those that are imbibing, once in a blue moon I will hear of some AA's getting together to jam but I still have enough of a problem with palying with people that I cannot even remember how to play a simple song.

I have everything that makes me happy in my den and 11 guitars right now ;)

I can sing and play chords, changes, etc pretty well, its the songs that (the way I can describe this is by referring to something specific) here are a couple examples.

Starship - Jane... Great song and I have the licks and rhythm down but when I sing it I cant seperate the lyrics from the music without literally stopping my right hand, exactly like 5Strats described, no separation happening with my brain.

I need the encouragement from you guys so thank you. I think my guitar skills are slowly coming along and my ability to stay in a song guitar wise has improved over what it was last year this time.



littleuch
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Florida

Oct 13th, 2017 01:12 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

I would say get used to singing first. Record some scratch tracks of you playing a song structure. Get confident singing along with the recording. Maybe start air guitaring while singing the song, or hold on to your guitar while singing. Slowly introduce your fingers to the chord shapes and rhythms once your vocal has reach a confidence level. It'll come. Don't over analyze it.

Hammond101
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So. Cal. USA

Oct 13th, 2017 02:59 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

First let me say and no disrespect is intended, there is no substitute for diligent practice.

It take a long time to separate different sections of the body. You are capable of this because you play a guitar and the left and right hand are doing different things. Congrats! Not everyone make it even this far!

I started as a drummer, still play them, then added guitar. As a drummer you must separate all four appendages to play basically four different things at once. If I add vocals that makes five. Singing anything that was a bit off time was impossible for me for a long time. I just kept working at it and one day I could do it. Bam!

I think these things must be sometimes looked at as to where the vocal rhythm fits or intersects with your strumming of the cords. There will be places things line up and it's important to understand where this is. Writing the lyric out and placing the chord change above in a correct place can be a help.

Practice by strumming the chord on just the down beat, the first beat of the measure. You can add more guitar complexity as you gain strength and confidence.

Singing with guitar I have always needed to know the guitar part by memory and be able to play it without thinking about it. Know it to the point it just flows from you (Use the Force Luke!)Then I add the vocal. It works the other way around too. You can add the guitar once you can sing the part.

It just takes time and practice. I find slowing everything down helps too. You can speed it back up once you learn it.

Therealfrogman
Contributing Member
*****

Pueblo, Co

illegal is a sick bird....
Oct 14th, 2017 09:06 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Hammond101, after a lifetime of knowing how to play a bunch of songs and having gear I decided to learn how to play. That was about a year ago and the things I have picked up over 40 years are benefiting me now. I am getting there.

I have lots of free time and at least 2 hours a day goes into it. I am as diligent as I can be.

You guys are an incredible resource and I may upload a video to my YT channel to show you some of my perceived problems, learning curves.

Peegoo
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Enjoying

the downtime
Oct 24th, 2017 11:31 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Therealfrogman, there's some good advice here.

The best advice I can offer is to practice *slowly*.

Here's an example: Whole Lotta Love, by Led Zep. Play that dead-simple signature riff in E and sing the verse over it. Not easy to do, because some of the notes in the riff are syncopated, and much of the vocal is rubato (not "on" the beat). It's like rubbing your stomach and patting your head at the same time.

But if you set your metronome to half speed (quarter speed is better!) and work on the riff and the vocals, you will get it. Practice at slow speed until you can nail it all the way through. Once you achieve that, increase the speed by about 10 BPM and work on it again.

You *will* be able to do it if you don't cheat or hurry through it. There is no substitute for meaningful practice.

This is how the pros do it. They did not pop out of the womb able to hit the mic while playing guitar. A few of the absolute best players that can rip complicated lines while singing live are Brian Setzer, Stevie Vaughan (RIP), Tom Petty (RIP), Christopher Cross, Willie Porter, and Dave Meniketti.

B.B. King (RIP) famously said many times that he never sang and played at the same time, because he could not do it. And he still made a career out of it!

Therealfrogman
Contributing Member
*****

Pueblo, Co

illegal is a sick bird....
Oct 24th, 2017 11:43 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Just in the last week I have improved. Slow is working well for me, I get distracted allot and start noodling, I am concentrating on getting that out of the equation.

It is hard to break bad guitar habits but I am getting better :)

I did manage to get an entire song on the Ditto with my playing imperfections and am using that for one of the songs I want to get over.



Hammond101
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So. Cal. USA

Oct 24th, 2017 11:51 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Dang, I wish I had a couple of hours a day to practice. Very cool! I do try to pick up the guitar at least once a day and do something however.

Keep up the good work!



Peegoo
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Enjoying

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Oct 24th, 2017 11:54 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Outstanding!

Fighting the urge to noodle is very very hard because you've trained yourself to noodle :o) Breaking old bad habits and instituting new good ones is a battle. But it is worth it.

woody
Contributing Member

The prairie

Oct 24th, 2017 12:36 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

The Urge To Noodle.

Another great band name.

Peegoo
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Enjoying

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Oct 24th, 2017 01:42 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

WOOT!

Achase4u

U.S. - Virginia

Oct 24th, 2017 01:57 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

It's very tough. We want to "play" our instrument. But practice isn't playing. Yet we have to do it if we want to play better.

Most of my issues are mental. Pat Martino said something amazing that resonated with me.

"Sometimes we're so absorbed and taken by what we want to do next that what we're asked to do seems to be in the way of it - And we try to get it done as quickly as we possibly can and by doing that we enter mediocrity, automatically."

Holy smokes. This is me when I practice. I think of all the dozens of facets of playing I need to improve on and I get paralyzed. If I can manage to practice from my manufactured regimen, I seem to hardly pay attention to what I am doing when I am doing it, because I am worried about all the other things I need to cram in. This is why I have always been better at practicing one maybe two things a day for a couple hours. It's incredibly hard for me to change gears. And in the bigger picture, practice is just something in the way of playing... but it's really the key.

Slowly is right!

Achase4u

U.S. - Virginia

Nov 1st, 2017 08:38 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Here is an interesting article on slow practice, and also an argument against it in another article!

Slowly?

Achase4u

U.S. - Virginia

Nov 1st, 2017 08:39 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

...and the retort.

Fastly?

Peegoo
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Enjoying

the downtime
Nov 1st, 2017 09:55 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

She doesn't really refute the importance of slow practice (2nd article). In fact:

"Of course, I practise very slowly myself when I’m in the early stages of note-crunching a new piece, and I advise my students to do the same. I want to see what I’m in for, I want to plan my expression..."

I think both writers are agreeing with each other in principle, because once you get the notes under your fingers, you increase speed.

Practicing slowly gets you started. As your proficiency increases, so does your speed.

There's no need to keep practicing slowly if you're nailing all the notes and/or chord changes on time.

Achase4u

U.S. - Virginia

Nov 1st, 2017 11:26 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Exactly. I think she just brought up an interesting technique to add to your slow practice, which is the "two-steps-forwards, one-step-back method." as she describes it.

She writes:

"Essentially, you move the metronome up a considerable rate above what you can currently play, and struggle through the passage a few times until it becomes easier. Then you move the tempo down about halfway between the tempo you can play and the too-fast tempo. Although the new tempo is faster than your original slow tempo, this method makes it seem instantly easier. You keep doing this until you can actually play faster than your goal tempo–by which time the goal tempo will seem easy and manageable."

I would like to shorten the name of this to something like "Jigger-joggering" or something like that.

I've done this naturally over the years. "Hey lets see if I can jump up to this tempo now!"

Takes a few times but you can kind of get it under your fingers for a minute. Maybe it helps.




larryguitar19
Contributing Member
*****

South Florida

larryguitar
Nov 1st, 2017 11:34 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

I think they both have it wrong. It's not about fast or slow. Rather what you have to do is practice that one little millimeter placement in a millisecond.

So instead of playing the whole song over and over just play the 3 or 4 groups of notes that are giving you trouble. I think it's much better to break down a piece in sections and practice the parts until you have it and then move on to the next.

Previous 20 Messages  

FDP Forum / The Chop Shop / It is never gonna happen, Bob. Quit while your ahead!




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