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FDP Forum / Miscellaneous and Non-Fender Topics / How does "hand-wired" improve tone?

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DanL
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Northern CT - USA

"We're not University material."
Oct 13th, 2017 05:54 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Jhawkr nailed it.

"I have several PTP amps and they were chosen for their tone. I have several circuit board amps and they were also chosen for their tone. Whether or not I could pick them out in a blind lineup, I couldn't say but that is hardly the point-to-point! ;o)"

I only have 1 PTP amp but totally agree.

reverendrob
FDP Data Goon
Moderator

We all want

our time in hell
Oct 13th, 2017 07:00 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

I'm waiting for the "leaded solder" snobs myself.

"This amp sounds better because of the authentic, aged solder joints that are not like the new ROHS-compliant crap!"

archiestone
Contributing Member
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El Californio

Oct 13th, 2017 09:38 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

I think we have the basis for a sweet class-action lawsuit against Fender for intentionally misleading marketing (see post #1.) Hey, we could all end up with hand-wired 64 Custom Deluxe Reverbs!

Peegoo
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Enjoying

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Oct 13th, 2017 09:46 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

This is a

point-to-point ("dead-bug") circuit.

Peegoo
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Enjoying

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Oct 13th, 2017 09:46 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

This

is not point-to-point. It's eyelet-board construction.

Peegoo
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Oct 13th, 2017 09:48 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

This is also not point-to-point.

It's turret-board construction.

Peegoo
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Enjoying

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Oct 13th, 2017 09:50 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

This is also not point-to-point.

It's tag-board construction.

Peegoo
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Enjoying

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Oct 13th, 2017 09:55 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

True point-to-point construction makes maintenance and repair very difficult.

There's a reason it's also called

"rat's nest" construction.

Chris Greene
FDP Host

Idaho, USA

Nine mile skid on a ten mile ride
Oct 14th, 2017 12:20 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

I bought my DRRI used for $400. Bet there's not a noticeable tonal difference.

FunkyKikuchiyo

VT

Oct 15th, 2017 09:21 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

"I'm waiting for the "leaded solder" snobs myself."

They exist in the department of defense! That is why the stuff is still legal and available in the States. They don't trust RoHS for nukes.

Peegoo
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Oct 15th, 2017 09:31 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Ken Fischer of Trainwreck amps fame (R.I.P. brother) claimed that copper, silver, and other metal wire had an inherent polarity: DC current flowed better one way than the other.

Ken was a great circuit engineer, but that is a little too 'foil helmet and 37 cats' compared to what I know about electromechanics.

willie
Contributing Member
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Too Near Atlanta GA

Amp Tech Emeritus
Oct 15th, 2017 09:33 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Thanks Peegoo for imaging what true PTP wiring is versus Tag and Turret board construction. I'm always amazed at how many don't know the difference. Of course, the manufacturers are much to blame for this as they love to tout their PTP construction when in actuality it's usually tag board or turret board. You are also most correct in pointing out the increased difficulty of servicing true PTP circuitry as it is what I trained on early on and still experience it in older amps and older radio gear. In most cases a complex PTP circuit is far more difficult to troubleshoot and repair than a modern PCB circuit of the same level or greater complexity.

willie

DrKev

Paris, France

It's just a guitar, not rocket science.
Oct 15th, 2017 09:57 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Re: polarity of wire, yes, that's not real science. It does surprise me how otherwise smart and expert people can get basic stuff not-even-wrong.

Lindsey Fralin, of Fralin pickups says that treble bleed mod affects tone even when the volume pot is on 10. Mother nature and her electrons disagree but there ya go.

stratcowboy
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USA/Taos, NM

Oct 15th, 2017 10:23 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Lindy Fralin.

littleuch
Contributing Member
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Florida

I'm not as clever as my dog thinks
Oct 15th, 2017 10:28 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Fortunately there are people who subscribe to bad science and voodoo that despite all, make a good product.

ejm

usa

Oct 15th, 2017 10:49 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Alexander Howard Dumble also talked about something called "circuit constants" in an old GP interview.

I'd never heard of it and still don't know what he's talking about.

You certainly can't argue with the success of Fischer and Dumble, but sometimes I wonder.


FunkyKikuchiyo

VT

Oct 15th, 2017 02:37 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

"Fortunately there are people who subscribe to bad science and voodoo that despite all, make a good product."

My experience is that many people in the music business get very, very good at figuring out "if you do A, B or C, this happens", and be alarmingly accurate about what is really happening. Years and years of experimenting and critical listening will really add up to something special.

When asked WHY certain conditions yield certain results, that is when the pseudo-science kicks in. They piece it together in whatever way makes sense to them at the time, but it often is quite silly. So, they're excellent data collectors and experimenters, but not always the best theorists.

The problem is when someone from an engineering pedigree comes in and tries to figure it out. They unfortunately dismiss decades and decades of work because the explanations seem sloppy. The lack of mutual respect is more than a little annoying at times, but I digress...

rockstar_not

USA

Thank God for guitars!
Oct 15th, 2017 06:13 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

One thing not mentioned yet is that PCB desIGN depends on signal routing know how to avoid crosstalk on the board. Just as much as taking care to properly shield and route individual wires for a non pc board circuit. The points about care being taken with something marketed as hand wired should include proper signal routing.

Doc Sarvis
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USA/Salt Lake City

Tuned Strings and Tight Lines
Oct 15th, 2017 06:26 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Hand-wired board is cooler. PCB is consistent but boring, yawn. Yeah the tone between them is comparable but the nod goes to hand-wired for me because I can work on them. The thought of working on a PCB makes me shudder.

LeftyMeister

Buckeye Country, USA

Motorcycles, Guitars, and Golf
Oct 15th, 2017 07:22 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

"Ken Fischer of Trainwreck amps fame (R.I.P. brother) claimed that copper, silver, and other metal wire had an inherent polarity: DC current flowed better one way than the other.

Ken was a great circuit engineer, but that is a little too 'foil helmet and 37 cats' compared to what I know about electromechanics."

That's only true if capacitive coupling already exists from parallel fields.

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FDP Forum / Miscellaneous and Non-Fender Topics / How does "hand-wired" improve tone?




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