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FDP Forum / Fender Bass Guitars and Bass Amps / 1961 Fiesta Red stack-knob

Previous 20 Messages  
edmonstg

Newberg, Oregon

Fender...never say never.
Jul 8th, 2016 06:03 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

I'll let Uncle Stack have the final word on this one.

The cut of the board above the nut looks like it should.

It may just be the light available when the photos were taken. Or the camera used. If I were thinking about buying this, I might wonder about the color. The orange content in the mix seems a tad lacking. In other words, the bass is too "red," if this makes any sense, almost like a Dakota. Like Uncle says, this is one you would love to have in your hands to see for sure. I've also seen some that looked a bit Salmon colored.

If this is truly original, this is an early and somewhat rare example of a Pre-CBS highly desirable custom color.

It also demonstrates the fact that tort and not white (or mint green) was the material of choice for some early customs.

The price is quite high for today's vintage market. The dough is more in line with how things were up to 2008. I'm only speaking for the USA, not Europe, where the perception of vintage might be different.

George

(This message was last edited by edmonstg at 03:29 PM, Jul 8th, 2016)

edmonstg

Newberg, Oregon

Fender...never say never.
Jul 8th, 2016 06:21 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Also wondering if the case pictured left the factory with the bass pictured.

It's a knucklebuster tolex case, which I thought had been phased out in 1959-early 1960.

61 seems a bit late for a buster.

Never say never?

George

(This message was last edited by edmonstg at 08:22 AM, Jul 8th, 2016)

uncle stack-knob
Contributing Member
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united kingdom

Jul 8th, 2016 11:12 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

I'm thinking back a few years and recall a Fiesta Red Stack-Knob that was listed on eBay and also I think by a dealer. Was it "Olivias Vintage? I am not certain but this is sounding bells as I sense similarity.
The one previously listed was a re-finish.
Could be wrong.

Stack-knob.

(edit for clarity)

(This message was last edited by uncle stack-knob at 02:29 AM, Jul 11th, 2016)

uncle stack-knob
Contributing Member
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united kingdom

Jul 8th, 2016 11:29 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Now I just checked the pictures there of the wiring on this Stack-Knob,and I notice that the resistors are an odd value.The colour bands on them do not equate to the normal expected 220k.
Also the wear on the control knobs mainly the tone rings looks a lot,compared to the rest of the bass.
Unless proven otherwise,it is starting to look suspicious to me.
Stack-Knob.

(This message was last edited by uncle stack-knob at 02:36 PM, Jul 8th, 2016)

uncle stack-knob
Contributing Member
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united kingdom

Jul 8th, 2016 02:46 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Again,the marker dots on the f/board are too white and appear too close together at the twelfth fret.
The overall string spacing is unusually narrow.Just look at the spacing of the "G" from the edge of the board.This could be a poorly cut replacement nut following re-fretting.but I would like to see the string spread at the bridge.
Also look at the side position markers at the twelfth fret. They are too far apart.
Now,the decal is wrong;in as much as the small pat pend is positioned too high.Given that I have NEVER seen that before,and the decal is an "all on one" type,it can't be made to look like that as a result of incorrect application.And it's position is wrong by a noticeable amount in the picture.
In fact,the decals bearing the pat pend feature displayed a slightly finer font where it says jazz bass trademark electric bass.
Patent number decals that followed this type and did not have the pat pend had a slightly stronger font in that regard.

Something is not right about this bass to my eye.

Stack-knob.

(This message was last edited by uncle stack-knob at 05:25 PM, Jul 8th, 2016)

6G6

Texas

Fender power to the people!
Jul 8th, 2016 03:55 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Hey, maybe that Stacknob swapped cases with the
59P we recently discussed. ;^D
If this is very early production, perhaps they had not decided on what resistor value to use.
I expect there may have been some give and take between interaction and loss.
The things you guys spot and know about truly amaze me.

In any event, it's about $50,799 above my current budget.

edmonstg

Newberg, Oregon

Fender...never say never.
Jul 8th, 2016 05:23 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

For fifty big ones, even screws matter.

George

edmonstg

Newberg, Oregon

Fender...never say never.
Jul 8th, 2016 05:40 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

I went to my collection of vintage Fender basses on my computer and looked at about six different stack decals, including the headstock of a stack I once owned, and Uncle Stack is absolutely correct about the decal on this bass.

My very best guess, based on USK's observations and my own study, is that the decal on this Fiesta stack is not original and is instead an amalgamation of decals from several different years.

George

liverbird
Contributing Member
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UK

Searching for L40278.
Jul 8th, 2016 05:46 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Excellent points by USK and George.

The positioning of the PAT PEND part of the decal is indeed strange. Also good catch on the resistor colour bands!

The 12th fret face dots do look a bit narrow but it's difficult to say with certainty because of the string spacing and also the angle of some pics.

As for the 12th fret side dots - yes, they are very wide but I do wonder whether there's some variations on those... I've uploaded a pic to my profile from a 1961 Sunburst stacker that was sold by a U.S. dealer a few years ago. Also quite wide on that one!

(This message was last edited by liverbird at 08:14 PM, Jul 8th, 2016)

edmonstg

Newberg, Oregon

Fender...never say never.
Jul 8th, 2016 05:58 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

The fretboard clays are much too white. And the 12th fret dots are too close together. I have also re-examined the cut of the rosewood above the nut on the fretboard and although I first thought it looked OK, now I'm wondering if the cut isn't a bit too curved.

If I had to make the call on this, I would say there's strong circumstantial evidence to suggest this neck is a replacement, parted-out from a 80s reissue stack.

OUCH!

George

Bubbalou
Contributing Member
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USA

THE LOW END OF UPPER TEJAS
Jul 8th, 2016 11:28 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

"The colour bands on them do not equate to the normal expected 220k."

Stack, I am sure you know but for those who do not : The resistors in the photo are 3.3K (Orange, Orange, Red)

220K would be (Red, Red, Yellow)

George, maybe one of our monitors are showing incorrectly but on my laptop the color looks Salmon in color however as I was typing this I checked it on my Iphone and it does look Dakota Red. Hmmmm ????

uncle stack-knob
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united kingdom

Jul 9th, 2016 12:31 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Better pictures may reveal a lot.
Liverbird... well spotted on that other '61 regards the side markers at the twelfth fret position.They drilled side dots with a gang drill;obviously there would have been more than a few of those in the production process,and differences must have occurred.If so then that explains the wider spacing on the side dots.
One thing that is somewhat different about eighties re-issues is the cut of the headstock profile,especially the curve above the "E" tuner post. They look "sharper and more angular", by and large.This of course could be modified by a skilled individual.

Bubbalou.. Yes,thanks for that,the resistors are 3.3k on this bass.I personally have NEVER seen factory resistors of any different value than 220k being used.

All interesting,who's going to nip over there and inspect the thing then? :O)

Stack-Knob.

(This message was last edited by uncle stack-knob at 02:52 AM, Jul 9th, 2016)

edmonstg

Newberg, Oregon

Fender...never say never.
Jul 9th, 2016 05:05 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

I just put a picture of the headstock of my 60 stack from a few years ago side-by-side with the headstock from this red stack and they are not alike in the locations USK points out.

I'm ready to make the call: the neck on this red one is not an original stack neck.

George

edmonstg

Newberg, Oregon

Fender...never say never.
Jul 9th, 2016 05:07 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

I'm deleting this post about no photo of the neck butt because now I see it.

George

(This message was last edited by edmonstg at 03:20 PM, Jul 9th, 2016)

6G6

Texas

Fender power to the people!
Jul 9th, 2016 06:45 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Good point, George.
For over 50K, I think most anyone would demand to see the neck date.
Also, what's up with the unmarked pots?
If I am not mistaken, didn't the reissues use lower value resistors to cut loss?
I am starting to feel like the only thing that might be from 61 is the neck plate and even that could be faked.

edmonstg

Newberg, Oregon

Fender...never say never.
Jul 9th, 2016 10:10 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

I have known Uncle Stack Knob for many years. I consider him to be one of the, if not the, world's leading authorities on these basses. All the proof we need is this thread. He can spot things a stadium full of Tottenham Hotspur fans can't see. The man is truly amazing.

George

uncle stack-knob
Contributing Member
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united kingdom

Jul 9th, 2016 10:44 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Re-issues were wired quite differently to the originals,and they didn't use resistors like the originals did.
There is a picture on there of the neck heel,and the neckplate,both together;I say that the neckdate writing is wrong somehow,it does not look right. The neckplate has the serial stamped at the bottom of the plate,and would probably be off a '59 Fender possibly.
The pots carry the date etc. on the side of the assembly which is correct,and the batch date is correct at 6108.
The truss rod adjuster has a clean look about the drilling,like it was done yesterday..

So,so far we see a decal that is wrong,a headstock with issues on the shape/cut.A fingerboard that looks totally wrong where it terminates at the headstock in that overly exaggerated curve.There are resistors but they are totally the wrong value.There appears to be little or no shrinkage to the pickguard.Look also at how the"E" string changes angle as it passes through the nut onto the "E" tuner,even allowing for the thickness of the string,that does not look right,and suggests the angle of cut on the top edge of the 'stock is amiss,and maybe the placement of the tuner centres.
The marker dots are too close on the f/board at the twelfth fret,and they are looking like white plastic.The string spacing is off by a mile due to the topnut.The colour is wrong.Cover plates are later.
This list can only grow,we havn't had a glimpse of the pickups of course...

Looking at the website there are many other vintage Fenders on there. This throws the lot into doubt.

Stack-Knob
This list can only grow

JackL
Contributing Member
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Chico CA

If you rest, you rust.
Jul 9th, 2016 12:06 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Can we put this evidence/thread in front of the seller for a response? I'd be curious to hear what they had to say.

Jack

edmonstg

Newberg, Oregon

Fender...never say never.
Jul 12th, 2016 07:10 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

I think for me the lesson here, or a reminder, is that the best protection against fraud is to have an education.

At fifty thousand big ones, even screws matter.

George

rwb
Contributing Member
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Canada

The Plankster of Love
Jul 12th, 2016 09:43 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Reading this, I realize how much I missed the teamwork of Holmes and Watson, aka Uncle and George!

Previous 20 Messages  

FDP Forum / Fender Bass Guitars and Bass Amps / 1961 Fiesta Red stack-knob




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