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FDP Forum / The Chop Shop / Theory Question - Beatles "When I saw her standing there"

Ironlion

USA

One good thing about music.....
Jun 24th, 2016 08:29 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

OK,

The song is in E. Pretty straight forward, except the C7 when the boys hit the falsetto "holds her hand in *mine*".

I've tried to work out how the C7 fits, other than it's just the way it is and play it.

It's nagging me now. It's not a tri tone sub (that would make the substitution for a F#7), and it's not a secondary dominant (that would make it a sub for a G7).

Can anyone field this one for me. It's so simple, yet still eluding me.



Peegoo
Contributing Member
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Eat. Sleep. Guitar.

Repeat
Jun 24th, 2016 09:55 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

I'm guessing here, using my limited knowledge of music theory: the key center modulates to the key of F minor for the duration of the C7 chord, then back to E major. Very simple, but very tricky and cool.

Te 52

Laws of Physics

strictly enforced
Jun 24th, 2016 12:23 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

First off, I hear that chord under the falsetto "wooo" right after "I'll never dance with another..." rather than where you placed it.

Second off, I would contend that the correct chord is a Cmaj, not a C7.

Most music theoreticians would probably call it a "borrowed chord," i.e., a chord borrowed from the parallel minor key to use in a major key progression (or vice-versa). The C major chord doesn't belong naturally in the key of E major, but it *does* belong in the key of E minor.

In this case, it functions as a transitional chord between A7 and E7. It works in that role because of the very smooth chromatic voice leading, as can be seen by playing this example:

E A D G B e
x x 2 1 0 0 ... E
x x 2 1 3 0 ... E7
x x 2 0 2 0 ... A7
x x 2 0 1 0 ... C
x x 2 1 0 0 ... E

(This message was last edited by Te 52 at 11:50 PM, Jun 24th, 2016)

littleuch
Contributing Member
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Florida

Jun 24th, 2016 12:34 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Maybe I'm under thinking it, but I've always thought of it as simply a V#, no different than "Little Sister" i.e., just resolving to the I before hitting the V.

DrKev

Irishman in Paris

Forget Tone - go with Note Choice
Jun 24th, 2016 06:57 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

I think it's a C7 (or C) as sub for Am/C, i.e. It's simply a variation on the classic IV to IV minor. Play Am in it's place and you'll see what I mean. (The IV minor being a borrowed chord from the parallel minor key of E minor, like Te 52 said).

Riff Twang

Tasmania Australia

torn between country and the blues..
Jun 24th, 2016 08:46 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

I believe DrKev has explained it correctly, but it doesn't happen on the line you quote (end of bridge), only in the verses.

In my opinion it is actually Am/C on the Beatles recording.

Dolemite

What It Was!

cross-dressing for Rodan
Jun 24th, 2016 10:33 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

^this^

Ironlion

USA

One good thing about music.....
Jun 27th, 2016 09:26 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Yes, I did have the chord in the wrong place. Sorry about that.

Thank you all for the great explanation. You learn something new every day.

Tyrone Shuz

USA

I'm all in!
Jun 28th, 2016 09:57 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

No need to reinvent the wheel here--if you're soloing it's simply a very short modulation to the key of Em.

Te AS ALWAYS, is correct. The chord is so "C" heavy that I would not call it Am/C. It sounds like C major to me, but you could call it C6. None of this changes the fact that you're in Em while this is going down.

littleuch
Contributing Member
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Florida

Jun 29th, 2016 06:35 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

I was watching a fuzzy old YouTube of the lads live playing ISHST. Harrison seemed to be clearing playing an Am barr at the fifth fret, Lennon looked like he was transitioning from a F shape at the fifth to a C triad at the fifth, hard to tell if he was hitting the a note on the high e.

Its been so long since I did this in a wedding band I can't remember what I did, lol.

Tyrone Shuz

USA

I'm all in!
Jun 29th, 2016 10:00 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

This may be the video in question--it sounds different from the original but it's an Am7 there.

Which changes the theory not one whit. Am7 and C are really the same chord in the grand scheme of things.

SandBagger
Contributing Member
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Texas

Enjoy Every Popsicle
Jun 29th, 2016 10:08 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

^?

Link

shunka

Willoughby, OH , USA

I'm arrogant and a moron
Jun 30th, 2016 11:07 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

I remember an interview with Macca where he was asked about the meaning of certain lyrics, and his reply was something like, "What meaning? It's only Rock'n'roll after all. We were just trying to find a rhyme."

I suspect that it was much the same when composing the music. They wer masters of the unexpected chord or harmony that catches the ear.

Tyrone Shuz

USA

I'm all in!
Jun 30th, 2016 08:52 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Oops--here's the link.

If they had today's technology (or even mid-'70's technology) the underneath chord would be a lot more obvious.

Finally

Te 52

Laws of Physics

strictly enforced
Jul 1st, 2016 10:06 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Yeah, too blurry to be sure. George could be playing an Am or a barre C at the 5th fret with an E on the 5th string. GH was good at hitting just 3- or 4-note stabs, a la Steve Cropper. I personally do not hear any A notes in that chord, either instrumentally or vocally.

DrKev

Irishman in Paris

Forget Tone - go with Note Choice
Jul 1st, 2016 03:28 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

I started listening to these studio takes to confirm what thought I remembered (a dominant chord sound, i.e. C7) but no, I'll now put my money on minor. Am with a C bass.

@Shunka - You're not wrong in that these these guys had no formal music training but they did devour a ton of music before they were famous. They knew all the great songwriting tricks, much of which would be called 'theory' by some people. Many of their unexpected chords are standard fare in jazz and earlier 20th C popular songwriting, though unusual in early rock'n'roll.

Had they been familiar with beebop, they may have chosen the more hip 50's Bb dim7 instead of the old fashioned A minor!

Takes 6, 7, 8, and 9

(This message was last edited by DrKev at 05:28 PM, Jul 1st, 2016)

Guitar Fool
Contributing Member
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Sunshine State

Just a pawn in someone else's game
Aug 24th, 2016 04:15 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

When I was playing bass, this was one of my favorites...and gave me a new appreciation as to how good McCartney was...

it kicked my butt playing it

Dolemite

What It Was!

cross-dressing for Rodan
Aug 26th, 2016 07:59 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Paul lifted it straight off of Chuck Berry's "I'm Talking About You".

Steal from the best.

Guitar Fool
Contributing Member
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Sunshine State

Just a pawn in someone else's game
Aug 26th, 2016 08:43 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

^ yep... that pretty much nails it..

but its still kicking my butt..;-0

FDP Forum / The Chop Shop / Theory Question - Beatles "When I saw her standing there"




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