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FDP Forum / The Chop Shop / Writing with Nashville Numbers

6stringlust

Southeast USA

Mar 20th, 2016 08:58 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

I'm looking to determine the correct way to designate the turnaround in "Thrill is Gone" with Nashville numbers. I've heard this played a lot of different ways but I play in Bm and for the turn, G9 to F#7#9 then resolve on the Bm (I).

Assuming the F#7#9 is the V, what does that make the G9? Would that be written as #V9, #V, or a VI and if so, why (or not)? Please advise and correct me where I've got it wrong.

Thanks...


Peegoo
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Repeat
Mar 20th, 2016 10:11 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

VI9.

Always use the scale intervals as your counting system.

The Bm scale is

B (I)
C♯ (II)
D (III)
E (IV)
F♯ (V)
G (VI) right cheer
A (VII)

(This message was last edited by Peegoo at 12:12 PM, Mar 20th, 2016)

6stringlust

Southeast USA

Mar 20th, 2016 10:36 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Thanks Peegoo!!

Peegoo
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Mar 20th, 2016 11:19 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Rock on!

Dolemite

What It Was!

cross-dressing for Rodan
Mar 20th, 2016 04:14 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Isn't it a #V? VI is the same in a major or minor scale.

Tyrone Shuz

USA

I'm all in!
Mar 20th, 2016 05:20 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Only technically, Dolemite. You wouldn't use that term because the G (and it's actually Gmajor7 on the record) is in the 6 spot in Bm. It's the proper 6 chord. If you choose to play G9 you could use 6 with a subscript 7 or 9.

The F# (V) is not actually a 7+9 on the record but it works fine. It's an F#7sus to F#7.

And as for the #V in major you wouldn't use that term either, example a blues in A if you use the F9 to E9 as a turnaround you'd use bVI to V, and number it that way. In Nashville it would be b6 to V both with subscript 7's or 9's.

Dolemite

What It Was!

cross-dressing for Rodan
Mar 20th, 2016 07:25 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Gotcha

6stringlust

Southeast USA

Mar 21st, 2016 10:02 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Thanks y'all. I appreciate your comments!

Best...

gdw3

LA-la-land, CA

Insert clever comment here
Mar 21st, 2016 02:19 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Technically, the Nashville number system doesn't use Roman numerals, but regular numbers. So, 1,2,3,4... not I, II, III, IV....

Although your theory is correct, Tyrone, I'm not sure I would write it as a plain 6. If you're using Nashville numbering, then you might be dealing with people who aren't well-versed in theory. They might not remember that the 6 is flatted in a minor key. What I'd probably write would be "b6", just to be clear. Also, since you're saying it's a Gmaj7 in this song, I'd probably write "b6maj7".

(This message was last edited by gdw3 at 04:22 PM, Mar 21st, 2016)

Te 52

Laws of Physics

strictly enforced
Mar 21st, 2016 04:11 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

I really like the Nashville system, but unfortunately, it does not deal well with songs that are in a minor key all the way through. The system was developed in the 1950s and 60s, when country music was harmonically much simpler than today and songs entirely in minor were very rare. There are two ways that charts in minor keys can be notated in the NNS:

1. Write the chart as if the key were the relative major, or D in this case. Then the cited progression would read

D: 4^9 3^7#9 6m (or 6-).

The carets indicate a superscript. The 6m or 6- is necessary because ALL chords in NNS are assumed to be major unless otherwise indicated. Now, there's really nothing incorrect about that notation, except there's never a 1 chord, so there's never an indication that you're "home."

2. Indicate the key as Bm and write;

Bm: 6^9 5^7#9 1m (or 1-).

The problem here is with the first chord. Scale degree 6 is G in B minor, but G# in B major. So you're counting on the session players -- who may have widely varying degrees of formal music theory education -- to know that difference. You can count on there being some confusion about whether the first chord is G9 or a G#9.

So neither approach is completely successful in both being easy to understand at a glance and capturing the musical meaning or "feel" of the progression.

(This message was last edited by Te 52 at 08:34 PM, Mar 22nd, 2016)

Peegoo
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Mar 21st, 2016 06:08 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Simply yet another way for all them minor-key composers to make you depressed :o)

Dolemite

What It Was!

cross-dressing for Rodan
Mar 21st, 2016 07:38 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Example: Dm, the saddest key of all.

Tyrone Shuz

USA

I'm all in!
Mar 22nd, 2016 02:31 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

GDW--I'm aware they use digits, I referenced it in my first paragraph.

With the proliferation of tablets and wonderful apps, it's easy to make a chart w/the actual chord names, and if you keep them in the digital domain, you can transpose them with a few taps.

I would like to think /most/ session guys would know basic minor theory, and this tune is just a 12-bar anyway, so chord names might not be too cumbersome.

Interesting workaround on working in relative major--makes the naming easy, but of course doesn't capture the spirit of the piece.

SOLUTION: Don't write country tunes in minor keys!

Te 52

Laws of Physics

strictly enforced
Mar 22nd, 2016 04:33 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

TS -- If everyone has or is supplied with a tablet, and they all know how to transpose with it, that would certainly be a good, if not ideal, workaround. Especially if the tablets are all linked so that the session leader of producer can change them all at once.

Of course, the beauty of the NNS is that the key can change, but the chart never changes. So if the singer says "That key's a little high for me today, let's take it down a whole step," the players just do it, with no rewriting of charts and no delay or extra studio time required.

(This message was last edited by Te 52 at 08:34 PM, Mar 22nd, 2016)

Tyrone Shuz

USA

I'm all in!
Mar 23rd, 2016 12:59 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

I always categorize tunes in terms of numbers--roman numerals for me, but some tunes like Stella By Starlight don't lend themselves very well to a numbered progression. Most Nashville songs do.

I see tablets in use by working musicians like myself and even levels lower (not that I'm very high). I just assumed top studio cats would have 'em.

rvwinkle
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Twin Cities, USA

Land of Sky Blue Waters
Mar 23rd, 2016 04:11 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

I like the idea of showing the minor chords as lower case roman numerals.

Just gotta give the player a clue on the mode.

rvw

FDP Forum / The Chop Shop / Writing with Nashville Numbers




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