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FDP Forum / The Chop Shop / Is this modal?

mr.gibson

Hamilton, Canada

Music is your only friend....
Apr 5th, 2015 02:45 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Thank you.



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Bailero; Arlene Auger; Canteloube;

(This message was last edited by mr.gibson at 04:49 PM, Apr 5th, 2015)

Tyrone Shuz

USA

I'm all in!
Apr 5th, 2015 10:47 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

No, it's major, but uses some "out" chords, so there are temporary modulations. You hear the major 6th in the orchestration, but then you hear that flatted 6th later on, so it's not all one mode or one anything.

Is it modal during the "funny" note? Perhaps, but you could also call it a different key for that moment. But this is mostly major key with some out moments. When I think "modal" I think about a tune that's close to major (or minor) but not quite--something like Oye Como Va. It's not proper Am, it has a raised 6th, so it's actually A Dorian. "Can't You See" by Marshall Tucker is in D, but not exactly D major--it has a flatted 7th, so it's D Mixolydian. Neither of those tunes go to their "proper" keys, Am or D major respectively, they remain in that close-by modal scale.

mr.gibson

Hamilton, Canada

Music is your only friend....
Apr 7th, 2015 10:20 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Thanks, Boss.

Te 52

Laws of Physics

strictly enforced
Apr 8th, 2015 10:20 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

"...When I think "modal" I think about a tune that's close to major (or minor) but not quite..."

^+1

With one exception (Locrian, which you will probably never run into), all the church modes differ from major or minor by only one note at most. I long ago found it easier to commit the following list to memory rather than remember where all the whole and half steps are:

Mode -- Altered M or m Equivalent

Ionian -- Major, no alt
Dorian -- Minor with a #6
Phrygian -- Minor, b2
Lydian -- Major, #4
Mixolydian -- Major, b7
Aeolian -- Minor, no alt
Locrian -- Minor, b2,b5

(This message was last edited by Te 52 at 01:44 PM, Apr 15th, 2015)

Rigby1027
Contributing Member
******

USA, Lubbock

Anybody got a band-aid?
Apr 9th, 2015 03:49 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Modal means to modulate? That kind of changes things for me in a way I was always thinking about them.

mr.gibson

Hamilton, Canada

Music is your only friend....
Apr 9th, 2015 08:16 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

""Minor, b2""

That makes my teeth hurt just thinking about it.

Tyrone Shuz

USA

I'm all in!
Apr 9th, 2015 10:34 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Not really Rigby--Te 52 listed the "church modes" above. NEWSFLASH: Major and Relative (natural) Minor are actually two of them, so you've been playing in modes w/o even knowing it.

If you harmonize, for example, the minor scale, you'll get a i and a iv chord (in Am, that's Am for the i and Dm for the iv).

But if you take Oye Como Va, it's tonal center is the Am chord but it has a IV chord, a D major (D7 actually on the Tito Puente version) but the point is, reg'lar ol' minor has Am (or Am7 to four voices) to Dm (Dm7 to four voices) if you stay in that scale. So the D7 is problematic for reg'lar ol' Am.

MODES to the rescue!! The only "out" note is an F#. Dm7 = DFAC but the D7 in Oye Come Va is D F# A and C. If you raise the 6th of the Am scale you get A Dorian--A B C D E F# G, and that will contain all the notes necessary to accommodate both chords--ACEG for Am7 and D F# A and C for D7.

If you make connections you'll go "hmmm, one sharp, and it's F#, same as G major or Em!!"

Yes it is, but the root is now A. It's no different from C major and A minor being the same scale, for instance. Any note of the major scale can be the root, but it'll have a different name. The list in Te 52's post above has them in order starting from major.

One more thing--though A dorian does equal G major, you'll still note that the Am pentatonic is a great base to work from (A C D E and G). You'll need to add the F# for your D7 chord, but you don't really want to play the G major pentatonic--you can to make an Am9 sound over the Am, but you wouldn't want to "live" there, especially if you're going for the Santana or even Tito Puente feel.

mr.gibson

Hamilton, Canada

Music is your only friend....
Apr 10th, 2015 12:20 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

That's a nice summary, Te 52.

gdw3

LA-la-land, CA

Insert clever comment here
Apr 15th, 2015 11:12 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Not sure why you call those "church modes". He simply listed the modes of a major scale (the mode he calls Minor technically is called Aeolian or Natural Minor, also known as the relative minor to the particular major scale).

Rigby, modal is actually sorta the opposite of modulate. Modulate means to move to a completely different key. But when you're talking modes, you're talking about a certain home scale where the modes are derived from.

Remember, modes are simply scales using the same notes as the home scale, just starting on a different note.

So, in the key of C, if I play the exact same notes as the C scale, but start and end on the D note, I get D Dorian. Start on G, you get G Mixolydian, etc. All using the same 7 notes from the C scale. So they are thought of as modes of C.

Like Tyrone says in his post, Oye can be thought of as being played in A Dorian. Dorian is a mode made from the 2nd scale degree of a major scale. So A Dorian is derived from the home key of G major, which lets you know the key signature of the song (1 sharp), as well as that you may expect the other chords in the song to be derived from modes of G major.

(This message was last edited by gdw3 at 01:19 PM, Apr 15th, 2015)

Te 52

Laws of Physics

strictly enforced
Apr 15th, 2015 11:48 AM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

gdw3, you're right that it would be more correct to refer to the natural minor as Aeolian mode (and also to refer to the major scale as being Ionian mode). I have edited my earlier post to reflect that.

They're commonly called the church modes because they were standardized and fully explored in the worship music of the Catholic church from the eighth into the 16th centuries.

gdw3

LA-la-land, CA

Insert clever comment here
Apr 15th, 2015 08:09 PM   Edit   Profile   Print Topic   Search Topic

Huh. Learned something!

FDP Forum / The Chop Shop / Is this modal?




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