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FDP Forum / Guitar Mods, Repairs, and Projects / Radius blocks vs Flat blocks
(This message was last edited by uncle stack-knob at 01:14 AM, Aug 2nd, 2010)
FDP Forum / Guitar Mods, Repairs, and Projects / Radius blocks vs Flat blocks
Malcolm
Edmond, OKJul 25th, 2010 02:42 PM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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In trying to level frets some setup people I've tried ot learn from have used a flat sanding block. Others say a radius block.
OK, I'll play, who is right?
Mal
wrnchbndr
Contributing Member
*****
New Jersey
saving the otters one guitar at a timeJul 25th, 2010 03:20 PM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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To prevent an uprising I'll just say that there are all sorts of different approaches to fretwork -- there is no right answer.
Personally, I only use a radiused block to either establish a radius on an unfretted fretboard or I use them for clamping cauls.
On a neck that is already fretted, the radius is already established. There is only a matter of finding the frets that are unlevel. If you're using an abrasive block of any sort, the end result is going to be an average and the radius is still going to exist in this average.
When leveling frets, think of only addressing the frets that are elevated from the others. Start by adjusting the trussrod to a point that you find random frets causing a true straight edge to teeter on.
There are six string lies. Using your straight edge, check that in all six, the straight edge touches both the first and the last fret. Then tighten the trussrod 1/8th of a turn. Check the string lies again. Now you repeat this over and over until you find that you teeter in five out of six of the string lies.
Understand that nothing is absolutely perfect but the last remaining string lie is more perfect than the other five. Now use a fret rocker and check for rocking on individual frets and again, check the six string lies for each fret. Use a black sharpie to mark all of the teeter points and when you find a teeter point, find its beginning and its end across the width of the fret.
When you have mapped out the entire fretboard, begin at fret#1 and use a very fine single cut mill file to stop the fret rocker from rocking. Cut only what is needed to remove the rocking.
Look out for adjacent frets that have teeter positions that are parallel. On these you'll need to go back and forth from one to another. You remove the rock from one and then you remove the rock from the other. Then you go k to the previous one and check it again. Youll find that it usually has a rock again. Just go back and forth until neither has a rock.
Proceed down the neck in fret number order. Someone who thinks geometrically might notice that this process isn't exactly perfect. It isn't. But scientifically speaking you will always achieve a result that is over 50% more level than when you started. If you want to be sure or want a better percentage rate, You just repeat the whole process again using the straight edge and the truss rod adjustment. On the second session you'll again improve the level of the fretboard by over 50%.
Its at this point that I might use a flat fine cut diamond block in a rotary motions over the entire fretboard. I'll then recrown, dress the ends as needed and then polish.
9fingers
Contributing Member
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Floe, WV
A few BIG notes!Jul 25th, 2010 09:41 PM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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Thanks Wrnch, another one for the file of your posts I am amassing!
Curious, how long does this process usually take you on an "average" fretboard?
Peegoo
Contributing Member
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That chicken
is WRONG, baby.Jul 25th, 2010 10:51 PM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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I do it in a similar manner to wrnchbndr...but I Sharpie every fret crown (not just the high ones) before I start the grind process with the diamond block.
That way it tells me if I've left a low spot on the board that may create a buzz at the next higher fret once the frets are crowned.
wrnchbndr
Contributing Member
*****
New Jersey
saving the otters one guitar at a timeJul 26th, 2010 07:43 AM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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I can just make it under two hours from start to fully setup guitar as long as the are not complications such as a significant difference in relief from one side to the other, loose frets or the need to replace the nut.
The Advanced Mojo Process
This is the Coop de Grease: In a process all on its own, Sharpie the first five frets. Take a diamond block -- your best and most level, and apply a light rotary motion. Never leave the crown of the first fret. Always stay in contact with the first fret. If you accidentally come off the first fret, stop; resharpie the frets and start again. Just lightly rotary around for a few seconds spanning the entire width of the frets. The diamond block should span four to five frets. Lift the block fron the fretboard. What you are looking for is evidence of an elevated first fret via remaining sharpie on the second fret. You do not want to be applying any downward pressure while you are performing the check. You might inadvertantly effect the level of the neck itself. Just let the weight of the diamond block do all of the work.
Imagine that frets two, three, and four are fairly level but fret#1 is high. The Fret rocker will not identify this. Now consider the implications to the resulting relief adjustment and the adjustments to the nut slots. Both of these adjustments are referenced to the height of the 1st fret. If you see remaining sharpie on the second fret, carefully apply the mill file to the first fret parallel to the shapie on the second fret. Then redo the check.
I have squeezed out more mojo doing this than anythiong else I have discovered. Elevated 1st frets are very common and its a friggin kick in the pants to a client who has had their guitar setup many times by others and all of the sudden the elevated 1st fret is fixed -- night and day super mojo.
Do the same with the last frets on the fretboard. The last fret is the target. Its not such significant mojo generation but its worth the time.
wrnchbndr
Contributing Member
*****
New Jersey
saving the otters one guitar at a timeJul 26th, 2010 08:41 AM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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A few more things.
My work is based on the idea that as long as you begin with a neck that is flat while under controi of the trussrod, you'll end up with a neck that will perform at its best. I do not subscribe to other ideas such as "fall off" or a variable relief curve or other ideas that actually may have merit. I keep my approach simple with just wanting a flat field of frets and it has proven to be very successful. To achieve a consistent result I employ this simple concept that flat is good
The diamond blocks from stewmac are not perfect. They are really good but I have found some less perfect than others. Check them against a known high quality straight edge so you know where you stand when using them. I'm on my third pair of two -- coarse and fine. I have no need for the very fine -- its a waste. This is over a period of twelve years and hundreds of guitars. I don't know of anything better than these and you can find the same blocks from other suppliers but not really at any cost savings -- I'm still always looking. When using these, minimize all downward pressure and let the diamonds do the work. The blocks will last much longer. I clean them using naptha prior to each use and take care to protect them. I use old ones for sharpening tools.
A guitar neck needs to be secured and properly supported for a high quality leveling or you may end up chasing things that don't exist. I remove the neck on all bolt-on guitars to perform a level. It prevents accidents. You need a high quality and rigidly mounted vise with neoprene jaw inserts. I use a very simple neck rest that sits on a turnbuckle and a base to support the headstock. I adjust the relief on the guitar before I remove the strings and neck from the body. Clamp the neck heel in the vise and use the turnbuckle neck support to acquire the same relief -- too simple -- I now have simulated string tension. Then I adjust the trussrod for the average level as mentioned in my first post.
The Mega Mojo Process
So far I've described my routine process. There are a few little details that are too nit picky to mention -- you have the idea and I'm sure that you'll implement your own tweeks. But if you have a problem neck that is driving you insane via a disappointing result and lack of results, this is what I do.
Do everything that I've desribed so far. Then take your super high quality straightedge and lay it on the fretboard. Again, you're gonna be checking the six string lies. Take a .001" feeler gauge and test every fret crown that is supposed to be in contact with the straightedge. You will find that there are depressions. The feeler gauge should not be able to go between the straightedge and the fretcrown using only the weight of the straightedge. Mark the good conatct points with a sharpie by just dotting the verified contact points. When you have done all six string lies, evaluate the total result.
Now you need to decide what strategy you are going to use to eliminate or reduce the depressions. Preservation of fretmeat is the priority.
A depression would be a series of frets adjacent to each other that are low while the majority of frets in that particular string lie are level. Depressions are subtle but can really cause disappointment in the end result setup with an inability to get the action down as low as you would expect. Depending on where they occur, they can have all sorts of negative impact. That said, there is nothing wrong with a mild depression under one of the wound strings from frets #3 up to fret#7 -- it's actually benificial. Depressions are very bad when they occur between frets #7 and #14. You'll have fretting out problems. I only go this far when a neck is causing problem. The number one rule is don't try to fix something that isn't broke. Only enter this process if there is a problem otherwise the accuracy that you achived earlier is plenty enough. If you have a problem and you find these depressions, deal with them as well as you can using common sense.
Malcolm
Edmond, OKJul 26th, 2010 10:15 AM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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wrnchbndr -
Wherehwould you suggest I get a 'superhigh quality straightedge'?
wrnchbndr
Contributing Member
*****
New Jersey
saving the otters one guitar at a timeJul 26th, 2010 04:03 PM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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I got mine from stewmac and I had it checked at a local machine shop. It was accurate to .0003 which was better than I expected. I got the 18" version and its all I need. It doesn't do a whole fretboard on a bass but I can work around that. The stewmac straightedge is stainless steel and I take care of it. You might just check with a local machine shop and see if the have a better source -- real machinists use real tools and know stuff.
I'd still like to find a better source for the diamond blocks. A lot of the stewmac is really great but its a bit expensive. Not all of their tools would go into a book entitled "Luthery for Profit -- (The dirty underbelly of Luthery)
McMaster Carr sells individual feeler gauges. A .001 feeler gauge is easily damaged and I hate buying a full set at Auto Zone just to get a .001 or a .0015 gauge. You do need a full set of .001 to .030 if you get real perky with diagnosis.
All of this stuff just comes down to common sense if you sit down and think about the goal.
I'd love to have a laser device to measure fretboard level. I'm thinking of some sort of overhead gantry running on a linear slide with two different color lasers to achieve a triagulation effect and a color shift at the target... Too cumbersome to be realistic but I'm still thinkin about it. Sometimes simple is best.
9fingers
Contributing Member
****
Floe, WV
A few BIG notes!Jul 26th, 2010 07:52 PM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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I went to the dreaded Harbor Freight store & got a couple of their 3 packs of asst grit 6" diamond honing blocks. By checking them with my straight edge I found 2 of the 6 that are actually quite flat & useful grits for fret leveling. The others are now for sharpening.
It was still far, far cheaper than getting a couple from Stew Mac or Woodcraft.
uncle stack-knob
Contributing Member
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united kingdomAug 2nd, 2010 12:08 AM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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I have looked at,and used,quite a few diamond products when it comes to fretwork.
Years ago I purchased two DMT "diamond stones"
which are twelve inches long.
They remain,after all these years,very flat.
But another thing to investigate,is the use of what amounts to a semi flexible plasticky diamond "paper".I had some sheets of this supplied from some people who provide it to the precision engineering world.
It is flexible and comes in a size like abrasive papers do,with an adhesive backing.
Common use might be for attaching to surface plates and the like.
Anyway,you can attach it to your own custom made blocks,or steel levellers or whatever,and it lasts forever.
I have known people simply wrap standard abrasive papers around a brand new unused sharpening stone (smooth) and that works as well.
The Stew-Mac aluminium radius beams are good,but very pricey.
As far as obtaining good straight-edges is concerned,it would pay to look for one of two names, Moore and Wright (Sheffield),or if you are lucky,you may come across a good used one by Brown and Sharpe.
Try and avoid the ones sold by cheap outlets ,as they are very good for checking bananas!Strike up an aquaintance with a friendly local machine shop,they may well take an interest and help out.
I have yet to truly resolve the cost of the tools which guitars deserve to have used on them,with the generally accepted prices for the work carried out for the client.
Meant in the kindest way possible,they don't know how lucky they are at times! But to sit and hear them play can be the greatest reward.
Stack-Knob.
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