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FDP Forum / Performer's Corner / The Sign Over the Stage Said...
(This message was last edited by siddacat at 11:38 AM, Jul 29th, 2010)
(This message was last edited by siddacat at 02:18 PM, Jul 29th, 2010)
(This message was last edited by buster h at 03:33 PM, Jul 29th, 2010)
(This message was last edited by siddacat at 03:58 PM, Jul 29th, 2010)
(This message was last edited by siddacat at 04:12 PM, Jul 29th, 2010)
(This message was last edited by mrblues at 05:35 PM, Jul 29th, 2010)
FDP Forum / Performer's Corner / The Sign Over the Stage Said...
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SkankinRabbit
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Many Bothans died
to bring us this informationJul 28th, 2010 11:04 PM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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" The amount of the payments are decided arbitrarily by the PROs and not subject to free market competition and does not account for the material actually being played."
6, you haven't offered any evidence to support this claim.
You claim that the fees are arbitrary and not subject to a free market, but, absent of any evidence you might have to support this claim, I have to suggest that the fees are not arbitrary and are, in fact, supported by free market competition. BMI was founded by broadcasters in order to create competition with ASCAP, which was founded by music publishers. Like any other business, their goal is to maximize revenue. As has been discussed and as is evident, they realize that the way to do this is not to put people out of business, but to ask for appropriate compensation for the use of their members' works, and to set fees that are fair to the copyright holders and yet also reasonable to business owners. The people being shut down by huge fees aren't those who were ignorant or unaware of their responsibilities towards copyright holders, they are those who were made aware of the illegitimate nature of their operations and yet still refused to pay for the music from which they were deriving their income. The people who write the music we love so much deserve their fair due, and as to this point in this thread or anywhere I have not seen a convincing argument that the licenses asked by ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC are unfair or exorbitant for the free use of music they provide.
Dadical
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I am not a complete
idiot - I have several pieces missing!Jul 28th, 2010 11:06 PM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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"people tired of Lynyrd Skynyrd covers"
A bit off topic, but I'm finding more and more that it's mainly us players who are tired of Skynyrd covers. The crowds still demand 'em.
siddacat
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Pacific Northwest
Shoot low they're riding Shetland poniesJul 28th, 2010 11:14 PM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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You're actually right. I was trying to be funny, We get requests for Skynyrd all the time.
6 Cylinder Slim
New England
Your Message HereJul 29th, 2010 06:48 AM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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Back when I was younger, it was all about the rush from making live music, getting my chops up and learning from working with more experienced older musicians and getting there. Well, now I've been there for a long time. I'm now the older generation and I find myself thinking more about passing along the skills and traditions of live, local music. The decline of the local music scene and resulting lack of opportunity for local musicians saddens me. I don't blame the decline only on ASCAP and BMI, but their system is a customer relations disaster for local musicians and is a deterrent for people to provide live music venues. Hence, the "sign over the stage". The people receiving paltry fees are the upstart musicians. I'll bet the majority of them operate in the red, covering band expenses from day jobs. I think if these musicians were the ones who paid copyright fees based on price competition in an open market, you would find what the value of playing these tunes in local pubs was actually worth.
mrblues
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Livin'
Velveeta Loca!! Jul 29th, 2010 10:29 AM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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"Just an opinion on why the audiences are down. It has nothing to do with clubs offering originals vs covers. It has nothing to do with ASCAP/BMI. it has to do with Video games, internet, economy and television. It has to do with all of the distractions people have."
Not just your opinion. This is the general feeling of the entire entertaiment industry. The movie business is hurting, cable companies are climbing all over each other trying to keep business alive... there are just too many choices now and a generation of spenders with zero attention span and a love of gadgets.. not movies and music like most of us grew up with.
6 you seem to have a lot of vitriol toward these performing rights societies of which you seem to have little or no knowledge. I'm sorry that someone you know of has a sad story to tell you and wants to blame someone else for their lack of business acumen... but you'd be doing yourself a favor to quit this argument. Every time you post you make yourself look more ignorant of the facts. I'm not trying to be rude - but you're on a Monty Python-esque witch hunt and we all know that you weren't really turned into a newt.
siddacat
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Pacific Northwest
Shoot low they're riding Shetland poniesJul 29th, 2010 11:21 AM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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"I'll bet the majority of them operate in the red, covering band expenses from day jobs."
I've been playing on west coast for over 30 years. The rates for local bars has not changed much over those years. I get a good laugh out of clubs that want to book us for $50 per musician. They say that's what they have always paid. These days clubs want bands to play for the door, advertise the gig and man the door. The club owners are GREEDY they want all of the benefits but don't want any of the risk or do any of the work. This has nothing to do with ASCAP/BMI. The profit from a draft beer is higher then it's ever been.
We play to an average of about 100-150 people in the clubs around here. One club does about 250. The club owners pay the PROS with little complaint they are making money. The biker bars around here pay the bands crap but offer lots of opportunity for new bands. The coffeehouses pay nothing and draw little.
6 Cylinder Slim
New England
Your Message HereJul 29th, 2010 01:38 PM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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I don't take it as rudeness mrblues, but I do feel it is an honest difference of opinion and not any vitriol or ignorance of the facts on my part. I'm 57 now. I've been playing semi pro for 30 years. I don't know how much longer I'll be keeping this up, but I don't really have a personal horse in this race. At this point in my life, I'm looking at the work of local musicians as a great American tradition that is worth preserving. Copyright laws and the method the PROs use to exploit them hurts the lower end venues and the local musicians at a time when the business is very fragile. In my opinion this is just another symptom of our over litigious society and far too heavy handed on small venues and struggling local musicians.
siddacat
Contributing Member
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Pacific Northwest
Shoot low they're riding Shetland poniesJul 29th, 2010 02:15 PM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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Still not seeing how this hurts struggling musicians. Example please. if your area doesn't have many venues don't think that is everywhere. And it has nothing to do with ASCAP/BMI. The area I live in is small population and there is music 7 days a week. Open mics and jams almost everyday. At least 40 clubs in the region, winery gigs, concert venues and at least 5 coffee houeses that have music. The only one's bitchin are the coffee houses and the places that don't pay musicians.
Dadical
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I am not a complete
idiot - I have several pieces missing!Jul 29th, 2010 02:40 PM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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"far too heavy handed on small venues and struggling local musicians."
Fees are scaled for venue sizes. If anyone might have complaint about heavy-handedness it would be the larger places who pay far more. Are you suggesting a system wherein the larger venues subsidize the smaller ones? That certainly doesn't fit with your previous call for more of a free market approach.
RCinMempho
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Memphis, Tennessee
Boldly going nowhereJul 29th, 2010 02:46 PM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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Is it fair to collect payment for a horrible performance of a song?
SkankinRabbit
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Many Bothans died
to bring us this informationJul 29th, 2010 02:49 PM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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The horrible performance discount comes out of the band's end.
SpinDoctor
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Ohio USAJul 29th, 2010 02:50 PM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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If I were a songwriter, I'd want to be paid more for someone butchering my song.
buster h
USA
It's just mileage baby!!!Jul 29th, 2010 03:31 PM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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I have been watching this post for a while and posted once. Now having received roylaties for my work I think I can honestly say BMI & ASCAP are full crap. Every time I have contacted them they act like they are doing me a favor and not receiving their %, but I digress.
Fees will always seem small if someone else is paying them.
To compare music to a wiget is wrong,your song will last three to four minutes and be gone forever. At lease if you buy the wiget you will have it until you throw it away. And if someone finds it and uses it they don't have to pay for it again.
If you have played at a bar before how many times do you have pay for a song. What if the bar has a jukebox, does that mean the business has already paid for the song.
I think that what Napster did was wrong, but two wrong don't make it right. I would be proud if someone took the time to learn my song and perform for sombody. Should they pay me for the right I would say no, but if they recorded it for sale that would be something else.
Just spitballing here, but sometime greed looks ugly and makes us look petty.
Buster
Pedro
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Madison, WIJul 29th, 2010 03:51 PM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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“The amount of the payments are decided arbitrarily by the PROs and not subject to free market competition and does not account for the material actually being played.”
Based on my understanding they are not arbitrary. They appear to be based on mathematical formulas, air play and statistical sampling. They aren’t exact I’ll grant you but a workable and logical solution.
“I think if these musicians were the ones who paid copyright fees based on price competition in an open market, you would find what the value of playing these tunes in local pubs was actually worth.”
I’m curious how would you do this?
siddacat
Contributing Member
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Pacific Northwest
Shoot low they're riding Shetland poniesJul 29th, 2010 03:56 PM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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"To compare music to a wiget is wrong,your song will last three to four minutes and be gone forever."
Buster you have hit the real problem with ASCAP/BMI. We always have challenges with fees too. But most of our stuff is used way more then once. For the songs on movie and TV sound tracks we get checks as long as they run. We lost a lot of money in the digital transition of TV. There was no tracking mechanism and we had a half hour program that ran 10,000 times and not a penny. But having said that I've also seen checks for $20k. This is a completely different issue from the club thing.
Clubs and even less coffee houses and other public venues make up less then 20% of what ASCAP receives.
I would say hang in there and keep writing if ya got one check you can get more.
Fees do sound small when someone else pays them. But in the case of these clubs and coffee houses these people knew the fees existed and refused to pay them. If they don't like it change the law. ASCAP has cracked down on aggressive agents and the majority of the stories you hear happened over 10 years ago. Still no examples of how this hurt musicians. If anything it saves them from laying deadbeat dives
siddacat
Contributing Member
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Pacific Northwest
Shoot low they're riding Shetland poniesJul 29th, 2010 04:11 PM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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.
mrblues
Contributing Member
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Livin'
Velveeta Loca!! Jul 29th, 2010 04:22 PM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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"I would be proud if someone took the time to learn my song and perform for sombody. Should they pay me for the right I would say no, but if they recorded it for sale that would be something else."
What is the difference between recording it for sale and playing it for sale? Either way, the other musician is benefitting financially from your blood sweat and tears. We all know it's easier to make money in a cover band than in an original band. Why? Because someone wrote a great song and everyone else wants to benefit from that for free?
"To compare music to a wiget is wrong,your song will last three to four minutes and be gone forever."
Wow. Am I really misunderstanding something here? Your song will last 3 minutes and be gone forever? I could swear a lot of the music in my collection is older than any widget I've ever owned. And I have had MUCH more joy from music than any widgets too.
"Copyright laws and the method the PROs use to exploit them hurts the lower end venues and the local musicians at a time when the business is very fragile."
1. One of the major problems with the industry right now is the flagrant disregard for copyright laws making it much more difficult for songwriters to make a living at their craft anymore.
2. As siddacat and others keep pointing out, there are plenty of places to play if you choose to. People in this thread keep asking you for examples of the throngs of bars run out of business by PRO's. You keep citing one guy. Seriously - it's just not a strong argument and is not supported by the facts.
Pedro
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Madison, WIJul 29th, 2010 05:09 PM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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“Fees do sound small when someone else pays them.”
Isn’t that true of anything?
mrblues
Contributing Member
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Livin'
Velveeta Loca!! Jul 29th, 2010 05:24 PM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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BTW, The Sacred Grounds that you keep referring to, who's open mic was crushed by the mighty hand of ASCAP... is that the one at 2095 Hayes, in San Francisco?
The one who's website says "This is the oldest running coffeehouse in the city and, used to be, open mic as well. Sadly, the Thursday night open mic died a slow death, finally ceasing in late 2007. Host Gary T. Bell says, "it was kind of pathetic, no one was coming anymore. There was nothing I could do." Alas, a venerable San Francisco institution dies an inglorious death."
If so, ummm... did those ruffians at ASCAP set up a roadblock or something to keep musicians form showing up? I'm confused as to how they were the cause of death when the place's own website blames Apathy, not ASCAP.
SkankinRabbit
Contributing Member
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Many Bothans died
to bring us this informationJul 29th, 2010 05:44 PM Edit Profile Print Topic Search
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"What if the bar has a jukebox, does that mean the business has already paid for the song."
Yes.
If a bar has a jukebox, they are supposed to get a license. If a store is piping in music from a CD player, they're supposed to pay a license (and the big ones do). If you're hearing music when you're on hold on the telephone with a company, they either paid a license, went with something like Muzak where you get the license, used something that is free to use, or are in violation of copyright law.
There are even some instances where a business needs a license to play the radio - in most instances this is not the case, but there's a certain size/number of speakers/rebroadcasting threshold where you no longer get to use radio broadcast music for free in a business setting. Look up the Sonny Bono Copyright Extension act for more details, I'm forgetting what the exact specifications are.
It's easy for us consumers to feel like music is free, because we don't pay for it in the majority of the instances where we experience it. We hear music all the time without paying a dime, and so we feel like it's free, even though it's nearly always paid for. The fact is, paying a license for the use of copyrighted music is an extremely normal thing to do. It's perfectly fair, anyone who knows about running a business and using music knows about it and knows that it's just part of running a business.
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